Too Many Hoops to Jump Through: Pre-Marital Counseling, Ellen, and Gay Dudes

Wow, Shaun. Reading this post makes me want to move to Atlanta and become a part of your church. No joke.

I'm a Christian…have been for the bulk of my life. The church drives me absolutely insane with all of the requirements. I've asked more than one pastor if they can show me, in the Bible, where the requirements that they are putting upon me and other are, and it usually ends with them frustrated with me and me frustrated with them.

Jesus didn't come for the well but for the sick. I know that eventually the sick have to want to become well, but that won't happen if they feel judged for how they walk into the sanctuary.

Thank you for this post!

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Anyway, the ladies asked him about homosexuality and I think his response caught them off guard. I am sure they were expecting him to start preaching and bashing homosexuality but he did not. He simply stated that he knows what the bible says about it and it is not according to GOD's plan, but he has friends who are homosexuals and he still loves them and welcomes them into the church! WHEW! Them worldly, non-believers could not understand his answer! I was laughing because they just thought they could bait him but he didn't fall for it. One of them (Joy) also couldn't understand the concept of 'faith' but that's a whole nother post! I look at it this way: I know people who are homosexual and I have family members who are but I still ove them and I won't turn my back on them because I am not supposed to..I know that's somewhere in the bible too!

Again, thank you for being honest, open, and welcoming to everyone

GOD BLESS YOU & YOUR FAMILY!

Pastor Shaun,
This post has come at an excellent time. I am working on a paper/presentation concerning the Biblical ethics behind gay marriages, and I am wrestling with my beliefs and that of other "christians." When I typed up my entrance essay into graduate school, they asked up to speak on something that weighed heavily on our hearts (an area in which we want to focus in our own ministry). Without hesitation I wrote about homosexuality in the church. I am SICK and TIRED of churches turning men and woman away because they are "openly sinning" as a homosexual. Let me tell you something, I openly sin EVERYDAY. On purpose? Not usually, but I do: It's inevitable. But, because I am attracted to men I am allowed within the confines of most (if not all) churches. I disagree with these practices.

I feel for my gay brother's and sisters. I know what the Bible says about homosexuality; I also know what it says about lying, stealing, pornography, and pre-marital sex. However, the people practicing the latter walk through church doors on a daily basis; they serve on the board, the worship team, and as small group leaders. It hurts me to think that this privilege might not be offered to someone who is a homosexual. I am aware of the arguments that the church expresses concerning their reasons for preventing leadership roles, and a part of me understand that. However, WHO AM I to turn someone away from serving the Lord? At the end of the day, so FEW people are stepping up to serve; why would I turn someone away because of their sexual preference?

If there is one thing I know, it's that homosexual men and women NEED to be in church (just like me). Not to be chastised and preached to about their wrong-doing and sin (they can read about that in the Word) but to be a part of the BODY that Christ commanded us to form. What is a homosexual man or woman is the key to unlocking a problem in a particular church? What is that person is the exact person God sent to do a job no one else could do? I turn them away because they're gay? No thank you! Also, if you look back on all the people God used in the Bible (Old and New Testament) each of them had a flaw (or several), sinned (usually multiple accounts of it), and was imperfect.

My dream for the church I one day will pastor is to welcome ALL people who WANT to be there. When I meet God, I refuse to pay for turning anyone away from the Lord that I could have welcomed with open arms.

My question to others who read this: where in the Word does it say that homosexuality is worse than ALL other sin? I know some variation of this exists, don't know the verse though. If you find it or know it, please enlighten me.

I guess you have to define "gay." Are we talking about someone battling same sex attraction? I say come serve God while you work it out. You talking about someone living with someone they are not married to (gay or straight)? Then: Do they have to stop being gay before they serve as an usher? YES Sing a song? YES Play an instrument? YES How about join a small group? NO Attend Sunday service? NO How about attend a class for couples? Not with your gay mate.

If we are going to adhere to the rule that if they confess their sin or if you become aware of the sin then they can not serve in certain ministries then if we take this argument to the logical conclusion that means that once the church finds out that you are a lier, gossiper, slander, are envious, then you can not serve and you must be removed from your position. But we know that is not how most churches work. We will overlook some sins for the sake of expediency and will declare that others are the worst or big sins. Don't get me wrong , I believe there must be some standards for service and some positions may require a higher standard. There is currently more of a problem with adultery and divorce in the church today than the "BIG" sins we like to focus on. I don't see any one sitting half of the congregation down because of their sin, Pastor Shaun I praise God for your wisdom and insight.

Question: is the church’s problem with homosexuality simply that it’s wrong or that most people who define themselves as gay don’t think that it’s wrong? Is the problem that they aren’t willing to change and turn away from their sin OR is the problem what they are physically doing?

I am interested in hearing people’s oppinion on this.

The image of the Lord has been replaced with by a mirror…

As I read through the posts I'm struck by the fact that few if any referred to any scripture at all…only opinion.

This is so true because I believe that those who are not in the faith might have a false assumption that it is ok to be gay… God's word is not an either/or situation, It is what it is. Long before the world became infiltrated with homosexuality, God had already addressed it in the word. It is not something new, homosexuality isn't and neither is adultery or any other related sin. We must stop making justifications to what has been wirtten in the word

Good thing we do not have to jump through any hoops to receive grace from Jesus. We would be in some trouble.

My Dad has married some people that have lived together and obviously were not married. The stories he tells me about how they have went to several churches trying to get married and have been turned away as well as passed judgment on is amazing.

It seems that we like to put conditions on things because we are afraid. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we have misconceptions about how things are going to turn out and fear runs our decisions. For example: what if someone finds out I married a couple that was living together and were having pre-marital sex? Will they start to doubt my teaching and guidance and say that I was condoning something that I said was wrong? Or what if I allow gay people to serve? Am I telling others that it is ok to be gay?

There seems to be a great fear about what others think, when in all reality it is only about what God says and judges.

A couple of years ago,we had several families join the church who were living common-law with children. Some were back-slidden Christians, others were first-timers. After a few weeks in church, most of them came forward and expressed the desire to be married. How did we handle it?

1. We offered to "marry" them on the spot..or within a few days at least. This took place often in our kitchen, or in the local coffee shop. Marriage before God is a spiritual convenant. The Bible does not reguire a legal sanction for a covenant between God and man to be binding. However, God would take it very seriously if man took it lightly because it is not "legal"

2. Once the couples were bound together before God, we took the steps to make it legal. We understand that God is not impressed with receptions, dresses, flowers and the likes…but family often is, especially unsaved family. No-cost weddings were provided. All the musicians and ministered provided their services free of charge. The reception was either held at a local restaurant where everyone paid for their own plate, or in cases where that was too expensive, the whole comgregation got together and brought food to share at the church for the newly weds and their guests. At the "offical" and legal ceremony, we explained to the congregation that this was the second "wedding" and how the first wedding took place, thereby exonorating the couple from the accusation of "living in sin" before their legal marriage.

The second issue is a little more complex. I believe the real issue at heart here is not, do we distinguish homosexuality as a "worse" sin than others, but rather, what is our attitude to the authority of the Word in general, and to those, especailly in a leadership position, who recognise sin as sin, and refuse to repent. It really does not matter if the sin is lying, stealing or sex. All of us sin, and will continuie to do so as long as we remain in this body, but what is our attitude? Is it something we grieve over, and ask God to deliver us from, or is it a case of "well, everyone sins, and this is just my sin". I don't believe that the Word sanctions us to allow anyone to be in a leadership position who is unwilling to at least proclaim their desire for Jesus to be Lord in every area of their life. There is a difference between loving those who fall, and even those who are ignorant of their fall, and placing those people in leadership positions

Haha! Thanks Deneen! I am fine with churches holding people to standards found in the Bible, but we too often have double standards or impose standards that I just don't get.

I see the distinction Sinead! So, if someone has a secret sin and we don't know about it…that's not really our fault as leaders, right?

I LOVE THIS Sinead. I will really think about that way of doing things.

Kyle – I am afraid you are right man. Many pastors and leaders are very much driven to do what they think will please the most people. I understand this fear and think all of us have it to a degree, but it cannot guide our most urgent decisions.

Hey Randy…thanks for that prompt. Read many of the posts below. Some good passages.

Great questions Danni. Probably all of the above IMO.

Hey Brian – I agree with you. I would love your thoughts on some of the questions I asked in the post.

Shaun,
I think you may be too liberal ( I say that lovingly). Your illustration about living together before marriage is why the United States (and other countries) developed the "common law" (law developed from past court decisions). People realize that laws/statutes are not adaptable to every situation. And creating a statute with 5,000 exceptions is more confusing than it is helpful. So the law is: you cannot commit murder. But what if the person breaks into your home? What if you think they are going to kill you? What about if you think they are going to kill a family member? What if you thought they were going to kill you but they didnt have a weapon?

Nevertheless, although we realize that there are exceptions to every law, we dont throw out the law in its entirety. Similarly, I wouldnt throw out the rule prohibiting couples from living together before marriage. Of course, there will be times where this rule would cause more bondage than liberation. In those cases, like the self defense points above, you use discretion (like judges do). After all, I imagine the spirit of the rule is intended to help couples go into marriage free of fornication.

As to the question about ushering, choir, etc for people in violation of God's commandments, I am split. I come at it differently than you but we may reach the same conclusion. I dont think that if one is struggling with some type of addiction that taking a leadership role in the church is the best example. In my mind, it would almost give me the impression that it's ok (imagine the choir director a known Coke addict). That's why you, the pastor, must have the utmost character.

The reason I dont know what the proper answer is based on the sneakiness of sin. For instance, a woman who is pregnant out of wedlock might be banned from the choir because we see the manifestation of her sin (big belly) but the dude who impregnated her is lead usher. That doesnt seem like a fair outcome.

That said, there can be an idea that once you ferret out the person who isnt setting a good example then they are removed from leadership. So if you find out that the unmarried, male choir director is sleeping with women (or men) then they are removed.

Loved your balanced thoughts on this Daniel!

Thank you so much for your comment sis! My wife and I love Joel too.

Great thoughts man! What makes you think I am liberal? I am a pretty moderate dude. I own guns. Against abortion. I am also against the death penalty and believe in global warming though.

I pastor a church in San Diego. Just last week we had a gay couple attend for the first time and after the service they asked if they can serve as greeters this coming weekend. Greeters is one of the 1st level service teams we have, meaning that most anyone, if they can smile and eat a breath mint can be a greeter.

I am struggling a bit with this issue. It's not because they have sin in their life… these people are brand new to church… it's more because they find their identity in their sin. They introduced themselves as "Sally & my wife Suzie" (not real names). For me, that is one thing that makes it hard to deal with homosexuals in the church. It's not that their sin is any worse than other sin. It's just that most people who have sin in their life, don't find their identity in that sin. They don't embrace it as who they are.

I don't want them introducing themselves to attenders & guests as wife and wife… I also wouldn't want an alcoholic introducing himself as Jim Beam or Jack Daniels.

Ultimately I want to see them set free from the bondage of sin just like I want to see the liar, the gossip, the alcoholic, the abuser and the addict be set free.

We shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe what we think actually matters. The question is:

"What does the Bible say?"

That's where it begins and ends. Now, with these questions still comes context. Let's look at the issue of a person being gay. I have spoken with people who are in the clinical field and said there are people who are gay and saved. The one person I spoke to is a psychologist and said that some people will have their homosexuality buried so deep within their psychosis that they will never completely not be gay and won't until they receive their glorified body upon going to heaven.

Should a church keep a person such as this from serving in a ministry? Of course not.

But now what about the gay person who continues to flaunt their behavior and openly continues in relationship with somebody of the same sex? Well now we're getting into a different example. The bible says in 1 John 2:15-16:

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world."

This could apply to anything, not just homosexuality. If you're engaged in sin, the Spirit is going to convict you. If you're not convicted or if you're of the mindset that your sin is "no big deal" then you have some serious soul-searching to do.

Does this mean churches should have these standard arbitrary tests to determine whether or not somebody is worthy of being part of a ministry? No. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We're all not going to have a conversion like Paul where we're suddenly transformed (though it does happen). However, if that sin is ongoing and it's common knowledge, then church leaders at some point have to step in and take action. We had a person in our church praise team that has a substance abuse problem. There were times he fell off the wagon and after cleaning up was welcomed back to the team. But finally it happened one too many times and he was told he would have to step out of that ministry and that it would be some time before he was allowed to serve in a ministry again.

It's all not black and white.

Tough questions that you've raised, Pastor. On one hand, Christ freely accepts all who come to Him; Salvation is not for the perfect, but for the imperfect.

On the other hand, one of the marks of every good leader is accountability. If I'm a habitual curser and I find no sin in it, should I function as a worship leader? What message does that give to the people? If I drink daily to get drunk and find no sin in it, should I be head of the deacons? If I'm openly cheat on my wife, and see no sin in it, should I pastor God's people?

I think a big difference is people who sin, are being convicted of it, and praying/working to get out of the sin, and then those who sin and find no fault in it. That could mean that they are not truly under the guidance of the Spirit, for whom God loves, He chastens. When you assign people to be leaders, you're laying a great responsibility on then.

There is nothing wrong with a sinner of any matter entering the church, what we have to realize is that we as Christians, Children Of Christ, those who hold positions in the church can not and should not compromise with anything that denounce the Word of God. There is a difference in a homosexual person who enters the church and realizes that their lifestyle is not acceptable to God’s standards and that he or she truly wants to change their life and repents for their sins and asks for guidance. However it is not acceptable in the eyes of God to accept the sin and tell them that this is acceptable in God’s eyes. This goes for the alcoholics, drug addicts and prostitutes, liars, cheaters etc.. Compromising the Word of God in essence is a sin, are we ashamed to speak the TRUTH of the gospel? The word speaks "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38).
We as Christians are willing to jump through hoops for jobs, careers, society, people and for worldly possessions but yet we can’t do this for the one who gave us life, who died on the cross for our sins. Its not jumping through hoops, its living a holy and righteous life according to the Word of God.
Is so easy for Christians to get “religious” with the relationship that we should have with God. We twist the Word of God to make it “easy” to live in sin, to not make us feel bad or hurt our feelings. Don’t make excuses for your sins people of God, if you have done wrong in the eye sight of God repent and ask for forgiveness not compromise the word to fit your sin. Tell me anywhere in the Word of God does it say to compromise with sin? I am not the perfect Christian, however I am not FAKE either. I accept my wrong doings and convictions when I have done wrong according to the Word of God. We compromise the Word of God the for the acceptance of the world. Matthew 16:26- And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? This goes for the believers of Christ also. We as Christians have to get back being Christ Minded and not having the mind, logic or ideals of society or of our own opinions and beliefs but we should carry the beliefs and values of God and God alone, and this is something we are losing in our churches and among Christians today.

I was studying two scriptures that would sum up what I am trying to get across through the Word of God, but not my own.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (New Living Translation)
14 But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you. 15 You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

And there is NO getting around this people of God!

Be Blessed!

The message of salvation is for the world. So we should welcome all to attend services and of course small support groups for set up to help us deal with specific issues and sins.

I'm not opposed to having shacked up couples separate for a time before marriage, especially those that don't have children. I say separate and abstain from sexual activity. As someone who was sexually active before marriage, I know how sexual pleasure is powerful and can cloud judgement. For couples with children, marry them on the spot and take care of the counseling and legal stuff later, or separate (and abstain from sex) to marry after a period of time — whichever is more practical. In either case, put an end the sinful situation.

As far as leadership, the Bible is very clear about the standards of leaders. I think that even those that sing in the choir, praise team, play an instrument, usher or greet, or serve on any committee should set the same standard for themselves, even if it is not biblically required. We should follow Jesus's example. He was very welcoming, but not compromising, with sinners. But, He often called leaders to the carpet on their hypocrisy, forcefully if needed. We should do the same. I also think the emphasis on sexual immorality reflects the emphasis on it in the Word. Not that it is worst than lying or gossiping in the eyes of God. It's just that sexual immorality affects us in a much deeper way than other sins don't. Sex involves the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. And we bear penalties of sexual sin in all those areas. I know from experience.

We can do that by being transparent about our struggles (even at the risk of being talked about negatively) and telling our own stories about how God saved us and continually shows mercy. We should also hold leaders accountable to the standard God set in His Word, just as Jesus did. If the don't meet God's standard for that office, they shouldn't be appointed in the first place. And after appointed, the should do like Paul and beat their bodies and make it their slave so that after they have preached to others, they themselves will not be disqualified for the prize (1 Corinth 9:27).

Great question PT. Our church does not yet have membership. We are brand new and are working through this now. What do you think a church should require?

Thank you for sharing your story Jay. Let me ask you a question.

In your opinion, how should a church work with men or women that may want to leave behind being gay?

:-D

Amazing blog post Desiree. I really appreciate the time you took to think and pray things through. Hope to comment on your blog soon.

So honored to have you a part of our community.

THANK YOU for your post. I agree with you completely!!!! There's a lot of traditional thinking on this and it's easy to quickly jump to an answer…often times based on comfort and tradition. I agree with you though: How can we impact the world if we're too afraid of their mess? (and as though we don't have our own mess already!) Jesus wasn't afraid of this…at all! Tthe church in Jesus' day got offended over and over at how Jesus related with those they thought to be unworthy! I think your post describes more of Jesus than the current church norms! Church/Christianity was never intended to look perfect…it's messy business! We're all on our salvation journey and for some reason we think it starts for us when we believe but it only starts for gay people when they change their actions. How is this consistent?
P.S. I saw someone comment that you shouldn't compromise…but I don't think you are. I dare to question if they're the ones compromising God's Truth or a soul saved…with their perspective?!

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. And then there's the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah…

Part II to above post –
Same goes for other sins – there are people who are in the music ministry and other ministries at our church who have gone through different issues and are working on their issues (whether it was drug addiction, alcoholism, etc.) but for someone to say "I'm a drug addict, I'm not going to change, and I want to be in a leadership position" that wouldn't be okay.

In regards to people living together and wanting to be married, I think the church should marry them immediately, and go through the pre/post marital counseling at the same time. It doesn't make sense to say "we require 10 pre-marital counseling sessions, which means it will be another 2 months before you can get married, so you need to move out." That's what I consider jumping through hoops. Putting time frames like a 6-month waiting period while you're not living together is definitely jumping through hoops.

We can't keep trying to get around things on a technicality. Technically, God didn't tell Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he just told Adam. But they were both considered sinners, and they were both punished. And yet we sin "on a technicality" every day. "Where EXACTLY does God say that homosexuality is wrong? Well, when He said it was wrong in that scripture, he was referring to sexual behavior and not sexual orientation. 1 Corinthians is unclear…" etc. etc. It's all trying to justify sin by putting the blame on God for not being "clear," when the reality is, just as with Eve, we will be called to account for our sins whether we thought we got away with them or not.

"Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, "

That (and 1 Thessalonians 4) pretty much cover it. Any kind of sexual immorality needs to be repented of. Let the person hear the good news and respond to it… and then let them be discipled by someone in the Body who will tell them that sexual immorality is not to be named among us– that we are called to be holy. 1 Corinthians 6 says that those who practice sexual immorality (among other sins) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. It also says, "And such WERE some of you… (not ARE some of you). God loves it when His children pursue righteousness (sanctification) even though we are positionally given that gift by the Lord. I have heard that truth without love kills. I have also heard that mercy without truth seduces– and that is another way to kill another person, Proverbs says.
Let the sexually immoral be discipled by someone who will help them turn from all sexual immorality.
That is part of the requirements Gentile believers were given in the above passage in Acts.

Part 1…
I don't dispute the word…It says don't make it difficult for new believers to come to Christ…but it also tells us not to be quick to put new converts in a position of authority…The word sets standards for those in leadership positions…Anyone living a life of habitual sin…gay or straight…with no desire to disagree with that sin…should be removed from a position of authority…My prayer is that before they were put in that position, the pastor did not rush to judgement and that the person was found qualified in the first place. Read all of 1 Tim 3… Here's an excerpt….1 Timothy 3:6-7 (NKJV)
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
The Word sets the expectations for leaders…and the standard is higher than the new convert….
So yes…recieve the sexually immoral(gay, fornicators, adulterers, etc), recieve the

You are right the word of God says we are to worship God in spirit and in truth john 4:24 when we work in a position for God we must be qualified in 1 samuel God qualifed samuel in romans 8:28 it tells us we must be called by God we cant get in a position because we want it.

Danni, I have been called many things because I agree with you on this topic. (Most of those things aren't very nice!) Wondering when the church will grow up and learn to love likeJesus loved.