A few months ago I asked you your thoughts on a weed-smoking volunteer @ Courageous Church. Many of you declared firmly that he could not and should not serve in the church until he stopped smoking and others of you basically wanted to fire up with him :-)
Since that post, I have encountered issue after issue like this and came to this conclusion: Our church is full of sinners. I’m not even talking 50/50 either. The more I get to know the people I serve the more I realize that they are struggling with sexual issues, drug and alcohol issues, honesty, integrity, and everything in between.
If I had to find a sinless person to serve @ Courageous Church I would be in a world of trouble. Who would sing? Who would usher? Who would cook and serve breakfast? Who would tear down and clean up homes with hopeATL? I wouldn’t be able to preach on Sunday. I wouldn’t be able to lead our team on Monday. I wouldn’t be able to serve as pastor of Courageous Church if I had to be sinless.
So, here are the million dollar questions…
- Can sinners serve in church? As leaders? As greeters?
- Should pastors and leaders serve as sin police…searching for sins and secrets in the congregation?
- Should people with public sins be able to serve or just with private sins?
{ 15 comments… read them below or add one }
Man. This is a huge question, and one that I have struggled with personally.
I hate it when people are disqualified because of their sin. Peter, the very rock that Jesus was building his church on, denied the existence of Jesus…and did it right in front of his face. And yet, Jesus still used that guy to lead the Christianity movement. And when Jesus confronted Peter about his sin, he didn't rebuke, yell, scream, or fire Peter. He just asked Peter a question and gave him an opportunity to tell Him the truth.
To answer your questions, and I'll admit, I'm way more liberal on this than most.
1. I know a pastor who currently thinks that people with what he considers to be huge, blatant sin problems (living with someone, gets wasted on the weekends, is gay, cusses on twitter/facebook etc.) cannot serve in leadership roles in the church. But he has stated time and time again that he doesn't mind if they are greeters, ushers, or run kids check-in. I respectfully disagree with this particular pastor. Sinners should be allowed to serve anywhere. We are all working out our issues with God, and if we can't do it while God is working on us and cleaning us up, I for one am royally screwed.
As a sidenote, I hate how this question is answered in discretionary ways. One pastor may be cool with cussing on twitter, while another is totally against someone who is gay. It blows me away that we disqualify people because of their sin. I don't ever see Jesus doing that.
2. No. No. No. I know many pastors who do this. Most pastors will frequent facebook/twitter accounts making sure that his leaders aren't saying things they shouldn't be saying. To me, this displays a lack of trust. I think pastors are really good at playing the role of the Holy Spirit in someone's life. And I think pastors like to play God, too. Whole 'notha blog post right there.
3. We all have sins. Mine are more public than private, but I'm trying to make them public. My pride gets in the way a lot. I'm really fat. I treat my wife like crap sometimes. And many more. But I'm a pastor. And unfortunately, we try to make people put on the mask when they are serving in ministry. We punish people for telling the truth. Case in point: someone on my team came to me and told me they had had sex with their girlfriend. And I didn't punish him. I didn't kick him off my team. I thanked him for telling me the truth, and had him tell me what his plans were moving forward. I didn't tell him to stop having sex. I didn't tell him to avoid staying at her house late at night. I trusted him. Because I think that's what a good leader does.
Most pastors that I know will punish people for telling the truth. So you have two options as a leader in a church if you're struggling with private sins.
1. Continue lying about it to your pastor, and keeping it a secret…because if you tell the truth, you know that you'll be removed from your current position. It's crazy that we create the very atmosphere that we're trying to get rid of… OR
2. Tell the truth, and be punished for it. Be fired for it. And be publicly humiliated for it.
I don't know about you, but I can't see many people choosing #2.
If you're a church pastor/leader who is in charge of people, you have two options.
1. You can police peoples sins. You can go around trying to make everyone perfect like you…(well, you're not perfect, you just haven't figured that out yet). And when people come to you with their sins, you can punish them for telling you the truth, remove them from ministry and kick a sinner to the curb.
OR…
2. You can foster an environment where people can come to you, share their struggles, and you can work through things together. You know what? Your worship leader may be addicted to porn. Your kids pastor might be having sex with her boyfriend. If I'm that pastor, I would want my team to tell me the truth…and when they do, I'm not punishing them. I'm thanking them, and then helping them.
May pride not ever be an issue for us. And may we realize that we all have issues, problems, addictions, and hangups. The church…some church has to be a place where it's finally okay to not be okay.
That's the church I want to be a part of. And that's the church that will change the freaking world.
Who would you have serving if you did NOT allow sinners to serve? Just saying. Public or private — we all have them. For pete's sake — we're all trying to just live here and spread the great news that we can be FREE WHILE we are sinning — not to say that we desire to stay in this condition. Let's see…..someone, somewhere….said…."….while we were yet sinners" — ahem.
When you say “sinners,” do you mean people who are still living a sinful lifestyle and also active in their church?
Does a drug-addicted young adult need to be given the reigns to disciple other teens?
Should a person on sex-offender registry work in the nursery?
I am curious as to what responses this will generate and how others deal with this situation.
Wow, Shaun, these are some really tough questions. I am sure you'll get some interesting answers. Here are my thoughts:
■Can sinners serve in church? As leaders? As greeters?
Well, it depends on what you mean by sinners, I guess. No one is perfect and we each have our own challenges. What makes the difference is how we face those challenges. If by sinners you mean people who embrace those challenges, continue to wallow in them then come serve in the church as though none of it were going on then I would have to say no because one's lifestyle should line up with their confession and their service.
■Should pastors and leaders serve as sin police…searching for sins and secrets in the congregation?
Nope! I think if pastors and leaders took on that role they would drive themselves crazy. Their job, in my opinion, is to (A) lead by example and (b) give their congregation the tools necessary to lead a successful Christian life and have a intimate relationship with God … not hover over them to make sure they're doing everything they're supposed to do. Pastors and leaders can only do so much but its up to the congregation to CHOOSE life. Pastors and leaders just offer the same choice that was given to them.
■Should people with public sins be able to serve or just with private sins?
That's a good one! No sin is worse than the other. I think that question would best be left up to a prayerful pastor and that person. Like I said, we all have our challenges and sometimes we fall. But, even in falling, our hearts may still desire to do right and be in right standing with the Lord. If a person is consistently showing signs of not wanting to do better then maybe they need to "step down" for a little bit and get some help with that situation.
I hope all of that made sense.
I have to agree we are all sinners saved by grace, and we all have our junk to deal with! For sure! But if you are in a leadership role you are supposed to be an example.. held to a higher standard. Paul says that all things are lawful but not to be bound by anything. He also says in 1 corinthians 5 to let the brother in sin sit out till he gets his junk together. I'm Just saying, I think the people in ministry or leadership should be expected more of. Espescially if they are teaching the children. And we dont have to be sin police cause I have always heard that our sins will find us out anyway. Look at David, deep in his sin with Bathsheba the prophet Nathan called him out! Paul also in love called EVERYONE out! Its just my opinion but I think the scriptures should tell us what to do here. and In love tell the people whats up! Isaiah 58:1 says.. "Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and their sins." just my opinion….
Randy absolutely hit the nail on the head.
But just in case this is a matter of semantics and you actually mean if people who are involved in practicing sin without trying to get better than that's a different question all together. And that is up to you who can simply serve in your church. It's the standard that you set as the head of that place.
However, the Bible is very clear on who can be LEADERS in the church, using words like 'ABOVE REPROACH…"
Your fired – you said freaking – you cursed.
Jay
Is the Bible really clear on pastors and leaders?
How do you reconcile "leaders" with Jesus in Mat 23:10 teaching His disciples
not to be called "master/leader" for you have one "master/leader" the Christ?
The Interlinear Bible-
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English-
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.
Today's English Version-
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.
The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader )
the Christ.
If Jesus told "His disciples" NOT to be called "master/leader"
and someone calls them self a "leader" or thinks they are a "leader;"
are they a “disciple of Christ?
If that is our choice, “disciple of Christ” or “leader”
which one do you choose?
Hmmm? Pastor, is this a “Title” or "position" in the scriptures?
Have you done your own study, research, on pastors?
I mean in the Bible?
What does the Bible say about pastors?
Makes an interesting study.
Here’s some questions to ask as you check out pastors.
In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed and be a blessing.
Just kidding – loved your responce
Grace until it hurts.
Then more grace.
"Should pastors and leaders serve as sin police"
Is the Bible really clear on pastors and leaders and what they biblically do?
How do you reconcile "leaders" with Jesus in Mat 23:10 teaching His disciples
not to be called "master/leader" for you have one "master/leader" the Christ?
The Interlinear Bible-
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English-
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.
Today's English Version-
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.
The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader )
the Christ.
If Jesus told "His disciples" NOT to be called "master/leader"
and someone calls them self a "leader" or thinks they are a "leader;"
are they a “disciple of Christ?
If that is our choice, “disciple of Christ” or “leader”
which one do you choose?
Hmmm? Pastor, is this a “Title” or "position" in the scriptures?
Have you done your own study, research, on pastors?
I mean in the Bible?
What does the Bible say about pastors?
Makes an interesting study.
Here’s some questions to ask as you check out pastors.
In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed and be a blessing.
Hi Jeremy,
I appreciate your honesty and compassion for a world of dying souls who without Christ will never have a chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven. I understand your views and relate to the "no guilt" environment required for people to come forward and confess their shame. This has been practiced by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries and has not produced the kind of fruit that God expects if there is no change. (continues on next reply)
Confession of sin is not a substitute for repentance. As a pastor/leader of the church, we must boldly preach "Christ crucified" for our sins. As Christ's representatives we must warn everyone of the consequences of sin. When people hear the warning, the Holy Spirit convicts people and leads them to repentance. If people have no desire to repent or escape the judgment of God, this would be the result of a watered down message of the truth. As a pastor, we can never afford to compromise the Biblical Gospel in hopes of making it easy for people to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus never lowered the requirement of obedience to the commandments. Christ made it possible for people to enter the Kingdom of God by suffering the penalty of their disobedience at the cross. Jesus said, "…unless you repent, you will likewise perish." Luke 13:3. If a sinner values their soul as precious, they will take heed to the Master's instructions. Let us not be found with those who willfully alter the truth to no saving virtue but contend to keep the faith as it was originally given to us. Blessings in our loving Saviour. Michael