Do you wanna see a powerful, well-produced video featuring one of the most eloquent, intelligent orators alive today? Then watch this video…
I kind of agree with John Piper. I don’t like abortion and love life. In spite of the fact that abortion is a political football in this nation, I still think it’s an issue worth fighting for (or against), but the methods are simply counterproductive.
This video, as eloquent as it is in all of its YouTubey (I made that up) splendor, is also counterproductive. Watch it and read why I think so below…
In this video, Dr. Piper focuses his ire and frustration about the tragic number of aborted babies on President Obama. He critiques what he perceives as a lack of value for human life by the President and then performs some oratorical magic by making it sound as if President Obama is responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of babies.
Here’s my beef…
1. President George Bush was in office for 8 years and never really made ending abortion a primary goal. The same can be said for his father, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, or any other recent Republican president. However, when a Democrat is in office, they get sermons preached about what they don’t do to end abortions. This is, at the least, a bit disingenuous.
2. The Supreme Court currently has a conservative majority and has had one for many years and they have not overturned Roe v. Wade. Many cases come before them in which they could do so, but they do not. Where are the sermons about the Supreme Court?
3. Abortions can be outlawed in individual states, but all 50 states currently allow abortions. South Dakota, one of the most conservative states in the nation, has attempted 3 different times to outlaw abortion by allowing its (conservative) residents to vote to ban it and it has failed all 3 times. The inconvenient truth is that the majority of American’s do not want to ban abortion.
4. The Vatican (which is about as pro-life as it gets and is lead by a very conservative Pope) has celebrated President Obama’s willingness to seek middle ground on the issue of abortion. I have hopes that President Obama will actually take some practical steps to lessen the number of abortions in our country and that he will find ways to make some progress on this issue.
Ultimately, I think it is important to deliver messages like this on tough issues, but I just don’t think that laying this issue at the feet of our President makes a lot of sense.
{ 58 comments }
Seems like the video is in response to his statement on the anniversary of Roe v Wade. I would guess that Piper is just as upset with all of the Republican presidents you named for not doing more to stop abortion. But to my knowledge, none of those men made a statement celebrating the Roe v Wade decision the way Obama did, and none of those presidents have the voting record around abortion that Obama did.
I also don't think the Supreme Court has had a chance to overturn Roe v Wade in recent years if ever.
Either way, I don't think the video is blaming abortion on Obama, it is just a response to his statement about reproductive freedom and family matters. Nothing more.
I disagree. This message was about as timely and relevant as they come. He refers to the anniversary of Roe v. Wade that had just happened a couple of days before. Obama chose to celebrate that date by sweeping away just about everything that pro-lifers have been trying to accomplish for decades. It was the worst day for abortion since Roe v. Wade. I agree that it's not just the government's fault and we need to help mother's make good decisions. However, Obama was the most radically pro-abortion member of the Senate and is setting records at how fast he is destroying the family in America. He hasn't done anything to lessen the number of abortions. So far, all he has done is open the floodgates.
Weird; I just posted a blog similar to this (didn't know about the Piper video though). I gotta agree with most of what you've said. Except for SD; their votes have actually "banned" abortion in the past but their state supreme court overturned the vote. But thats the downside of being a democratic republic and not a full-on democracy. Anyways, the main reason I voted for Bush in 2000 was his pro-life stance. How are things different in 2009 than they were in 2000?
And Bush had a majority Republican congress during his first term as well.
“Eloquence is the essential thing in a speech, not information” Mark Twain.
Our president can't have it both ways. To talk out of both ends of his mouth and say that he would like to limit number of abortions while stating in the past that he believes a woman should have the right to abortion any time during the full 9 months of pregnancy takes his political double speak to new depths. He has got to be driving his opponents and proponents crazy. But if you look at our presidents voting record of the past, it clearly shows that the only thing you can depend on him for is being present.
Wait a cotton picking minute everyone. I know this issue is very divisive and people are passionate about both sides of the issue. Obama views are consistent. To characterize him as someone who is pro-abortion is not being intellectually fair. Since he is a pragmatist, he recognizes something that a good number of Americans recognize as well. That the issue is not black and white. Rather it is a complicated issue that has consequences for all the parties involved. Just as adamant that the fetus is a living person, there is contrary scientific evidence on the other side, that it is a zygote, a collection of cells and therefore is not life.
Roe vs. Wade is a landmark decision that has survived for several decades through Democrat and Republican administrations because the issue is complicated. Come on people, let's use our better judgment and intellect and find ways to discuss this openly and honestly. Participating in obvious partisan discussion is not elevating the discourse.
Yo Shaun, it's me, Ryan (aka – @ryanplantz), and I've come here to hate on you a little bit more.
Sorry, bro.
I think your arguments against John Piper are knee-jerk reactions and straw-man at best. In your fury to defend our first black President, you've lost sight of what John Piper was trying to speak toward – which was President Obama's remarks on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. I don't need to retread ground here, as I think ChurchETHOS addresses this well.
I also wanted to briefly address your first three points. I can understand your frustration with a lack of production from W., an inactive, conservatively-bent Supreme and impotent conservative states. It's frustrating that with the opportunities given to us over the past decade, little progress has been made. However, it's unfair to call Piper 'a bit disingenuous' as you A) Don't know his response to the lack of effort to overturn Roe v. Wade from your named parties and B) Obama's remarks on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade were very, well, unique – to say the least. Couple that with his voting record on abortion and you have legitimate cause for concern.
Take it for what it's worth.
P.S. – Please don't whine about critiques, negative responses, etc, anymore. That's part of speaking up in the public forum.
Hugs and kisses.
Abortion is a human rights issue and is worth fighting for despite what the culture says. Slavery was wrong yet was (sadly) socially accepted but clearly, not acceptable. Racial equality was (and is) worth fighting for and it seems to me, so is life.
And FYI. South Dakota is a very moderate state. Specially, we're fiscally conservative and socially moderate. We have a long history of voting for democrats to congress and voting conservative for governors & presidents. No one here was surprised the abortion ban didn't pass.
You clearly need to do better research which, you'd think with the internets, would be very easy. South Dakota has only voted on abortion two times, not three. The referendum in 2006 was brought on by the people of the state as a response to the bill passed by the legislature that was a full out ban on abortion — no exceptions. The 2008 initiative was initiated by anti-choice forces who still maintained that SD was a 'pro-life' state, bringing forth a ban with exceptions for health, rape, and incest. They lost…again…by the exact same margin.____I'd take Jason's perspective as a SDan a little futher: I think it's pretty clear that SD is not a moderate state at all. It's indisputably clear after two varied bans on abortion that SD is a pro-choice state, regardless of how people self-identify. Fiscally conservative? Sure. But socially, we have demonstrated through our continued election of Democratic federal representatives, our nationally exceptional opposition to a move to amend the definition of marriage to be between a man and a woman, and our vote on medical marijuana in 2006, that SD is more liberal than SDans and national ignoratis want to accept.__
that part of pipers sermon was a response to something specific that President Obama did. there's no need to bring up bush, regan, or any other President in an attempt to deflect the issue and the man.
The truth about what Obama will do will definitely become reality, and we all can then know the facts. If his term so far sheds any light on the hope and change he guaranteed, we're in for some trouble on issues like abortion. Words only go so far.
Google "Mexico City Policy" to see how each side has handled this issue. It concerns not simply Americans and abortion but rather our tax dollars being sent around the world to fund abortion. Mr. Obama decided that was something that just 'had' to be overturned (like Clinton did before him). Someone who is simply a pragmatist and wanted less abortion wouldn't need to send Federal monies to aid 'population control' via abortion in foreign countries.
It's not only a concern that the policy was overturned… but just how quickly. Record time. January 23rd. Is this REALLY one of the most vital policies Mr. Obama needed to overturn within 3 days? With everything going on… two wars, struggling economy, tarp funds…and… U.S. Tax payers paying for abortions around the world? Mr. Obama was elected president so we could go back to exporting this practice? Change we can believe in right there.
I think your enthusiasm for a historic election is clouding objectivity here. All 4 of your points are disingenuous at best.
i only have one comment and i'll leave it alone after this.
it's not arguable that abortion is the wrong course of action. i don't understand why people say "abortion is a complex issue" and use that truth to justify its legality. i *never* hear that as an argument as to why other wrong choices (drug/alcohol abuse, theft) should be legalized.
life is hard. there is right and wrong. deal with it.
there's not a conservative pro-lifer i know, including me, who disagrees with taking action to reduce the number of abortions. education, support, faith based initiatives and personal responsibility all get to the root of the issue.
am i upset that republicans didn't do enough about it? yes. am i upset that obama has opened the flood gates and uses our tax dollars to pay for abortions around the world? yes.
regarding the piper video, it's a response to obama's statements and nothing more. it's quite obvious that he *believes* in abortion. its' not just lip service to the liberal world. he wants it to flourish.
i only have one comment and i'll leave it alone after this.
it's not arguable that abortion is the wrong course of action. i don't understand why people say "abortion is a complex issue" and use that truth to justify its legality. i *never* hear that as an argument as to why other wrong choices (drug/alcohol abuse, theft) should be legalized.
life is hard. there is right and wrong. deal with it.
there's not a conservative pro-lifer i know, including me, who disagrees with taking action to reduce the number of abortions. education, support, faith based initiatives and personal responsibility all get to the root of the issue.
am i upset that republicans didn't do enough about it? yes. am i upset that obama has opened the flood gates and uses our tax dollars to pay for abortions around the world? yes.
regarding the piper video, it's a response to obama's statements and nothing more. it's quite obvious that he *believes* in abortion. its' not just lip service to the liberal world. he wants it to flourish.
I'm not reading any of the comments. I'm not going to give my 'stance' on abortion. There is no sense. But, I don't think abortion is really the issue Shaun.
I think instead of talking about how 'wrong' it is, or trying to outlaw it, maybe we need to get to the bottom of why they are happening in the first place. I seriously doubt people sit around and get pregnant just to have an abortion because, "What the hell, it's legal."
Why don't we live like Jesus and teach people. Why don't we open people's eyes, and talk to them. Why don't we stop fighting the politics, and start preaching the gospel. (not you, american's in general)
It sounds crazy, and maybe flawed, but I don't think illegalizing abortion will stop abortions… just increase the rate of underground 'black-market' abortions. Let's talk to people, teach people and LOVE people.
The change needs to happen in the heart, not in Washington.
Love you guys.
Its good to know there are some like minded people with me in this world. I will agree with you on ALMOST everything you said. The only disagreement I have is this: Under the reign on W, abortion rates did reach an all-time low. ____Having said that, I think its unfair to say Shaun is trying to defend the first black president. I don't think his comments are in defense of the prez, just a point to say that they are misdirected. Shaun is pretty much saying blaming the prez for all abortion is like blaming Manson for all murder. Despite his personal views, he isn't the reason it happens. I don't even think Shaun is trying to say Obama has the right perspective on the issue, he's just saying that to target Obama on the issue is misguided. ____Its funny to me that people use this kind of heat to target a MAN who can NEVER have an abortion because he'll never get pregnant, but yet go completely silent when it comes to those who actually have the power to commit an abortion. Where are the eloquent speeches targeted at troubled moms, lazy moms, scared moms and every other kind of mom that has had or could potentially have an abortion? ____When was the last time the Supreme Court looked at the issue? The 90's? Where's the outrage in that? ____I agree, Piper is correct about the murder of babies. And I also agree with Pastor Shaun that this completely correct, urgent and relevant weapon is pointed at the wrong person. It targets a potential advocate but not the actual murderer____Steve Patton
@Tally, thank you for giving me information about the Mexico City policy. I have not heard that much about it and I enjoyed researching it. I am still developing my opinion, but it sounds partisan. I get it though, you're pro-life.
Shawn has a huge point about the political divide in this nation. I am pro-life, but the question is…. do y'all think abortion will stop or even decrease if Row v. Wade is overthrown? If it became illegal in all 50 states today? I think not. It will only make it more dangerous than it already is and will open doors to more mistreatment against women than we already have. Just like prostitution. Legislating Christian values is a little bit more complicated than that.
And yes, abortion is a complex issue. Don't think so? Are you pro life? What if your daughter/mother/sister got pregnant through a rape you were forced to witness? Would you keep the baby?
@Adam, abortion is a complex issue because, as the Supremes said in their opinion, "When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer." It isn't cut and dry of when life begins or is viable and it therefore becomes an issue of privacy and government intervention. The government should not be able to intrude on the privacy of a citizen. Secondly, abortion is hard for all of the parties involved. I am sure you have known people who have had abortions and it isn't a fun experience. I doubt it is anything that people take lightly but at times, it is framed that way. The issue is still complex.
You have the right to be pro-life and there is compelling evidence to support your view. And there is compelling evidence to support a pro-choice viewpoint. However, to say that conservative pro-lifers support alternatives to reduce the number of abortions is supporting a bad strategy. due mainly to education, support, faith based initiatives and personal responsibility do not go far enough. We need to advocate free access to birth control, condoms, and other forms of contraception.
I am sure you'll have an alternative viewpoint and I am looking forward to hearing it.
Marcelo, have you ever met the child of a rape victim? They are really phenominal people. But that really becomes another discussion.
Yes, I did and I agree with you. I, for one, rule abortion OUT for any type of pregnancy (I refused first trimester-Screening tests test on my firstborn's pregnancy). Unfortunately there are people, even pro life, who think differently when it becomes personal.
Yes, I did and I agree with you. I, for one, rule abortion OUT for any type of pregnancy (I refused first trimester-Screening tests test on my firstborn's pregnancy). Unfortunately there are people, even pro life, who think differently when it becomes personal.
Shaun, great post here. enjoyed your response and what you had to say.
i really cannot disagree with you on this post. I think you went at it in a very objective and honest perspective and appreciate the thought you put into this post.
i hope you don't get "killed" for your opinion here.
there is a youtube video out there about abortion asking people who are pro-life this question:
"if abortion was illegal, what do we do with the mothers who still have them?"
tough question and even tougher response.
just wanted to let you know i blogged about your post today and gave you a little love.
check it out if you want: http://kylereed.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/unheard-…
@klreed, people are pro-life until the baby is born. After that, they are on their own.
About the political bias. I listen to AM750 some times… for comic relief. :0) Until December 31 Herman Cain and others were laughing at people who said we were in a depression or even a recession. Spilling all his economic expertize to prove otherwise. After January 20.. something must have happened… I don't know what ;0) All of a sudden we are in the biggest economic hole of our lifetime. Like I said… pastor Shawn has a huge point. But that's another discussion.
So, you are suggesting that if abortion were outlawed in all 50 states, if every doctor in the country quite performing them, if every Planned Parenthood facility quite performing them, and the federal money that goes to Planned Parenthood and organizations like it stopped – that the number of abortions in this country wouldn't decrease at all? Seriously? I'm not naive enough to think that they would go away completely. You shouldn't be naive enough to think that the number wouldn't be reduced significantly.
I disagree with Shaun. Here's what Bush did: stopped harvesting embryos, set aside money for real abstinence education, continued the US policy of not expanding abortion for sex-health programs overseas, banned partial birth abortion, set aside money and initiatives to support marriage. Now if that isn't productive I don't know what is. This is… Read More exactly the kind of Pro-Life programming that means something. We are not at a place where overturning Roe v. Wade will mean something. We got to get to the attitudes first. The real question is, if the govt was an extension of my (or your) personal activism (on abortion, or whatever your issues are)would I (or you) be pleased with it?
i agree with you Shaun. as to the comments- yes, life is worth fighting for. but where are the sermons and political tirades fighting for the lives of children once they arrive in this world?! poverty, the foster care system, special needs, diseases, abuse. these are all issues that if we REALLY cared about LIFE and serving the way Jesus called us to, we could do something about. it really irks me that we get so hung up on a law. like that is going to change anything. drugs are illegal and there are still plenty of people smoking weed everyday. the law is not the problem or the answer. why don't we ask ourselves WHY women feel the temptation to get an abortion in the first place and address the real issue here. it's convenient that we can sit in our glass houses and cast stones back and forth between political stances but i have very little faith that some legality is going to fix this. (and i am pointing the finger at myself here too.)
I posted a comment here last night. Any reason it wasn't approved by the moderator?
But shouldn't pro-life extend all the way through?
Meaning no war, death penalty, etc….
Yes Nicky….Yes! Thank you! I agree wholeheartedly.
Not sure why it didn't post Mandy! I automatically approve everything. Try reposting it if you can.
-Shaun
Not sure why it didn't post Mandy! I automatically approve everything. Try reposting it if you can.
-Shaun
Hey Baker,
Thanks for your comment. I understand that Dr. Piper may have used the Roe v Wade comment as a jumping off point for his message, but he took it much further in my opinion. Furthermore, he is promoting this video heavily as being his message to Obama to be courageous. I got the feeling that he was going to deliver this message whether President Obama said a word on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade or not.
Hey ChurchETHOS,
Thanks for joining this discussion. I think it is very healthy for people on all sides of the spectrum to come together to discuss this.
A few things…
1. President Obama did not sweep everything Pro-Lifers have been fighting for away. Not even close in my opinion. What do you mean?
2. When you say that he is setting records for how fast he is destroying the family, I would like for you to explain that? He is about as dedicated as a family man as the White House has ever seen. How exactly is HE destroying the family? Be specific please.
3. Do you have evidence that abortions have gone up or down since President Obama was elected? You said he opened the floodgates. Please explain.
Shoot me a link on here Jonathan. I'd like to see it. Thanks for your comment and insights man. The articles that I read about South Dakota are stating things a bit differently than you. Do you live up there by chance?
Hey Randy,
Not sure I understand or believe most of what you said. First off, please provide me with evidence of President Obama supporting abortion during all 9 months of a pregnancy. I think you pulled that out of your butt.
Secondly, how many times did President Obama vote present as a US Senator and what was the percentage of votes that were present while he was in Chicago politics. My understanding is that it was less than 2%.
Hey Ryan,
Had a feeling you'd show up. You always do when you have something negative to say. I'm not whining bro – it's just that the only time you speak to me online is when you have some critical or cynical to say. Gets a little tired.
Do you know ChurchETHOS? Honestly. See my comment above to the post.
Thanks for the South Dakota insight man. I know you are on the ground there.
Hey Michael,
I am not taking Piper's sermon out of context…he has chopped it up and promoted this part of the message very heavily. His words go far beyond simply addressing what President Obama said in my opinion.
My references to past presidents comes from my own research of struggling to find any public sermons about any of those presidents for any reason by Dr. Piper. Can't find a single message about a Republican President on any issue – particularly abortion.
Tally,
I know you are passionately against abortion, but your comment is a bit off base man. Maybe help me understand what makes you think all 4 of my points are disingenuous at best.
To suggest that I am simply some giddy fool that can't quit smiling because a black man was elected is offensive. In essence, what you have said is that because I don't agree with you, I must be delusional or worse. Intelligent people can disagree. However, as a general rule, when people feel the need to demean someone the intelligence of someone else to prove a point, it actually exposes a character flaw in that person.
Your thoughts?
Thanks for your very thoughtful and independent comment.
Hey Steve,
Could you provide some links to data about the abortion rates under President Bush?
Thanks,
Shaun
Hey Michael & Marcelo,
I actually agree with Michael on this. I think of it like murder in general. We still have a ton of murders even though murder is illegal, but could you imagine how many more murders we'd probably have if it was legal. Criminalizing abortion would likely reduce the numbers greatly, but present new challenges.
Thanks so much for the shout out! Even though I tried to offer what I thought was a balanced perspective, some people still hate it. Can't please everybody!
Hey Cantice,
Thanks for your comment. Let me be clear…you are pro-life, but don't think that overturning Roe v Wade would make much of a difference?
Hey Nicky!
Thanks for the comment. I am even OK with people fighting for new laws, but while we're fighting for those laws, we should be simultaneously fighting for the hearts and minds of people that need to hear the good news.
Shaun, here's on of them http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/us-abort…
Everything else about the matter just reports on the same information.
Sensitive? Wow. Really Shaun?
I said: “I think your enthusiasm for a historic election is clouding objectivity here.”
You said: “To suggest that I am simply some giddy fool that can't quit smiling because a black man was elected is offensive.”
Interesting how we can say one thing and hear another.
As you know Shaun, I was raised in the projects of Baltimore and am now here serving in these communities. I'm also the product of a woman who was 16 when she got pregnant with me so I obviously have a personal bias toward life. I’ve never hid that point. I have close family members who have had abortions and I’ve ministered to plenty of women who have done so. I do believe that abortion is the taking of life and in those complex areas where a choice must be made I prefer to make decisions to preserve life and provide opportunity. Bush is not my homeboy and I’m not an advocate on this issue at all. I’ve had an active online presence for six years and I’m okay with someone researching my level of involvement on this issue.
The fact remains is that I commented because I do find major flaws in your argument so at your request I’m glad to share them below. This issue is complex and I’ve thinned it out but unfortunately this isn’t a quick post. Allow me to apologize for taking up this much real estate on your blog.
All four of your points have genuine flaws. Other people have mentioned some of them above. I’ll respond to each point in sequential order as you initially argued them.
1. Bush did in fact have policies in place to reduce abortions. Our nation has actually had a general decline over the last 20 years, which is encouraging.
I both value all life (foreign and domestic) so turning off the flood of Federal funding for foreign abortions is actually a major step in my book. When Obama overturned that he made a statement. I’m not sure how an objective observer could argue that he was ‘taking practical steps to reduce the number’ when he single handedly gave American money specifically for the purpose of abortion abroad. If you can help me understand that point I’d be interested to hear your take on that.
Teenage pregnancy was reduced -albeit not enough- under Bush (which certainly reduces abortion numbers). It's a straw man to say that he didn't make 'ending' the practice a primary goal. We have three branches of government and you know that simple executive order can’t pull it off. The argument is not if he made ending the entire practice a goal but rather what action was taken on this issue. It’s obvious that there was genuine action taken by the former President. I’m honestly looking for steps Mr. Obama has taken on this issue. Especially after the Mexico City policy reversal I’ve previously mentioned. It’s one thing to give lip service, it’s another to act.
Your entire point here about Piper calling out Obama but not Bush is simply misguided. Obama marked the anniversary of the occasion by celebrating the decision of Roe. Within 3 days of taking office he freed up money for foreign abortion. As a state senator he blocked abortion at every turn… even laws preventing the killing of live babies who survived botched abortions. Google: “born alive infant protection act obama”
To say that Obama is remotely similar to Bush on this particular issue is not supported by any credible fact out there.
See NYT article: http://tinyurl.com/czq5o3
As a side-note on race, abortion is 5 times more likely for an African American than a Caucasian. It's literally responsible for taking 80% more African American children from this planet than Caucasian. Stats from: http://www.guttmacher.org/
More genuine stats and thought on this topic at: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-is-fr…
2. As you must know, the Supreme Court is not nearly as conservative as you suggest in your argument. It's a healthy thing in my opinion. In your argument you say that the Court under Bush had plenty of opportunity. That's just factually inaccurate. Justice Kennedy has become the swing vote on this and has a range of not so ‘conservative’ opinions. Secondly you pain the court as having some power that doesn’t exist. They can’t cherry pick the issue. Cases must rise to them and once there the court can't simply overturn Roe whenever they wish. They have a review process and a scope from which to work. You cite "many cases" which they could have overturned Roe. Name one. This country would have been on pins and needles if Roe could have remotely been overturned in the last 20 years. It’s simply factually inaccurate.
For more information on Justice Kennedy, the make up of the court during the Bush years and to realize that it's not as conservative as you suggest, just do a quick search for Justice Kennedy and the make up of the court. Even Wikipedia (which isn't even a legal site) gives a more accurate representation of this issue. I genuinely appreciate you and your work… but on this issue I simply disagree with your presumed facts.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Kennedy#Abor…
3. Again… another straw man. Roe v. Wade is a Federal law. We live under federalism and Roe actually makes legal abortion the law of the land. You argue that states 'could' do something different. No, actually in reality they can't. If Roe were overturned then they actually could each chose to decide. The Federal government has taken that decision from the states under the argument of protecting a constitutional right. Any state that makes a law overturning Roe in their state would easily be challenged and lose immediately in the courts. There is an issue called ‘federalism’ which grants states the right to make their own laws in areas where power hasn’t been extended elsewhere. Since Roe is tied to a constitutional issue the state itself can’t simply ignore the federal government on this one. They can, but it’d be symbolic at best and a waste of a lot of time.
Another point that should be mentioned here. There is a fallacy out there that suggests that if Roe is overturned abortion becomes outlawed. That’s not the case. If Roe were overturned, each state gets to take up this issue. The vast majority of states don't take up this fight on a state level right now mainly because it's a moot point.
Again Shaun, this is an argument of fact from my standpoint, not pure emotion.
4. I truly don't care about the role of the Vatican in American governmental affairs. It's not germane in my opinion. I'm not arguing you on this simply b/c I don't have a beef and I don't think it matters what foreign entities think of this policy.
Shaun, I’m looking forward to spending time with you in the future. I know we come from different perspectives on issues but we share a common passion for people and in the inner cities of America. We have a few areas where we see differently but I hope to build bridges with you as we each do our part in the Kingdom. I’m genuinely a fan of your work at Courageous Church and I continue to pray for your ministry bro.
abortion is not a political issue…it is a spiritual issue and a human issue.
Bottomline…sin can not be legislated..It's an individualized heart issue!
I guess then…why pay taxes? We are citizens of this government which has decided to weigh in on this issue, therefore it's our obligation to speak in the forum designed to develop consensus. I do get what you saying…the process one goes through determining to abort or keep the unborn child is NOT political; it is spiritual – the core of our being and humane – where we determine the center of existence.
Is that right?
Would anyone be willing to take in a child without question or restriction?
I don’t see many women arguing this point, so as a woman and a rape victim, I want to speak up.
When I was in my teens, I was raped. That rape ended up in a pregnancy that miscarried. I didn’t know I was pregnant till the miscarriage happened. It was then that I, at a very young age, had to think of what that pregnancy would have meant.
You want to get to the heart of why women get abortions? I can tell you my reasons why I would have.
When a woman gets pregnant out of wedlock, regardless of how, she is labeled a whore, a slut, anything but a child of God. Even if she’s a rape victim, she still has to deal with judgment from Christians, family, friends and men. Her reputation and relationships suffer. She knows what the pregnancy means, and its usually not good.
I know that my reputation and relationships would have been ruined if I had stayed pregnant. Maybe its selfish, but I’m glad that baby was lost. Its in a better place than the world that would have rejected it would have been.
Its a spiritual choice as well as personal in my opinion. Do I agree with abortion as a form of birth control? Not at all! But do I also think that the government has a right to put a metaphorical gun to a woman’s head and say “you must have this child”? No, I don’t agree with that either. That would be as wrong as telling a woman she must have an abortion for whatever reason they can come up with.
That’s just my opinion as someone who has actually had to face this topic first hand.
Didn't George Bush ban partial birth abortion?
Shaun,
I commend your post. In my humble opinion, your view is correct. Not just because I agree, but more importantly because it's the truth. I read Piper's sermons and am truly inspired and challenged by many of them. God is working in his life. However, while I sense that a political ideology takes precedence on some "hot button" issues like abortion. It seems that he and a number of other ministers never say a mumbling word as long as a Republican are in control. Sad. Especially when ministers are called to deal in truth. Many church people seem to forget about separation of church and state to the demise of the church. When is it my business as a Christian to tell someone what to do with their body? the bible says to work "your own" salvation in fear and trembling. We have a ways to go. Good post. I would love to get Piper's comment on this. The truth does set us free.
All of you, Piper, bloggers, and the writer have missed the point. If you are a believer of the resurrected Christ, there is only one judge. Abortion doesn't belong in government because they are not God and can never be the judge or jury. Abortion is wrong. Those that make the choice to have an abortion are the ones that will be condemned and no matter how long people of this "world" which are worldly people, keep the blame game going on government.
True believers are to minister to the people the truth of what the bible says is correct. That decision is a personal one that only God and God alone can jury. No administration has that right. If the world believes that it's the governments right to make this decision instead of a personal right to make a decision then the Kings message has been thrown in the garbage. We are all called to minister to one another to confess our sins and repent. No where is it listed in the bible that government should make this decision.
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