Comments on: Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html The Blog of Shaun King Thu, 12 May 2011 15:57:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: EL D http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-19452 EL D Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:01:02 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-19452 I know I'm late to the discussion...But I personally think it was more courageous of Shaun to acknowledge the potential for SIn and to take a stand that may be unpopular but does the most to guard him from falling into this particular sin....Your replies have been in the vein of 'we're all going to fall into sin..so why try to stop the inevitable'......I disagree...That's what this Christian walk is about...understanding that sin exists and we MAY become participants but understanding we have a redeemer who IS able to keep us from falling...and seeking to walk by His spirit in that type of life...We don't HAVE to accept sin as a way of life...I think the pastor is very wise...the best way to resist temptation is to not be tempted...Don't willingly put yourself in a situation where there is an option to fail....There are too many other areas of life where we don't have such control...why willingly add to that...Pastor Shaun...keep being a man of purpose, walking upright before God and the people! I know I'm late to the discussion…But I personally think it was more courageous of Shaun to acknowledge the potential for SIn and to take a stand that may be unpopular but does the most to guard him from falling into this particular sin….Your replies have been in the vein of 'we're all going to fall into sin..so why try to stop the inevitable'……I disagree…That's what this Christian walk is about…understanding that sin exists and we MAY become participants but understanding we have a redeemer who IS able to keep us from falling…and seeking to walk by His spirit in that type of life…We don't HAVE to accept sin as a way of life…I think the pastor is very wise…the best way to resist temptation is to not be tempted…Don't willingly put yourself in a situation where there is an option to fail….There are too many other areas of life where we don't have such control…why willingly add to that…Pastor Shaun…keep being a man of purpose, walking upright before God and the people!

]]> By: Susan http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-18963 Susan Sat, 09 Jan 2010 13:52:10 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-18963 Wow. It's been a while since I visited this thread, and I am truly shocked to read your comments. You keep talking about women who "can't see" the need behind your rules (and such a woman can take a hike, in your opinion). But you can't see that if/when you invite men into your office to discuss say, the future direction of the church, or to hear their view of ministry, or to instruct them, but you close the door to women in the same circumstance because of a rule that is about protecting you, you have demoted them and let them know in the clearest way that as far as you are concerned, they are unworthy of the same ministry. Like it or not, you are supposed to be the pastor of the whole church. I am not suggesting that you put yourself in situations that are dangerous or easily misunderstood. I AM saying that you have the responsibility to consider what you DO as carefully as what you SAY with regard to ministry to your whole congregation. Others here have testified that they have felt demoted by such policies. Can you not hear? What an indictment against pastors if we are unwilling to change what we do if it has unintended consequences; what a further indictment if the solution to not wanting to hear such things is "go ruin some other ministry." Wow. It's been a while since I visited this thread, and I am truly shocked to read your comments. You keep talking about women who "can't see" the need behind your rules (and such a woman can take a hike, in your opinion). But you can't see that if/when you invite men into your office to discuss say, the future direction of the church, or to hear their view of ministry, or to instruct them, but you close the door to women in the same circumstance because of a rule that is about protecting you, you have demoted them and let them know in the clearest way that as far as you are concerned, they are unworthy of the same ministry. Like it or not, you are supposed to be the pastor of the whole church. I am not suggesting that you put yourself in situations that are dangerous or easily misunderstood. I AM saying that you have the responsibility to consider what you DO as carefully as what you SAY with regard to ministry to your whole congregation. Others here have testified that they have felt demoted by such policies. Can you not hear? What an indictment against pastors if we are unwilling to change what we do if it has unintended consequences; what a further indictment if the solution to not wanting to hear such things is "go ruin some other ministry."

]]> By: Is 2009 The Year For Extramarital Affairs? How You Can Protect Yourself | ELEV8 http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-17645 Is 2009 The Year For Extramarital Affairs? How You Can Protect Yourself | ELEV8 Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:31:44 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-17645 [...] King takes steps to safeguard from any allegations as well. On his blog, he writes that, “[m]y wife (and other people) ha[ve] [...] [...] King takes steps to safeguard from any allegations as well. On his blog, he writes that, “[m]y wife (and other people) ha[ve] [...]

]]> By: Black Info.Net - African American News Hub | Black Info.Net http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-17524 Black Info.Net - African American News Hub | Black Info.Net Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:41:35 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-17524 [...] King takes steps to safeguard from any allegations as well. On his blog, he writes that, “[m]y wife (and other people) ha[ve] [...] [...] King takes steps to safeguard from any allegations as well. On his blog, he writes that, “[m]y wife (and other people) ha[ve] [...]

]]> By: Christian Leaders and Moral Failure « The Transition http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-15606 Christian Leaders and Moral Failure « The Transition Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:02:07 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-15606 [...] a few months back when I read an article by Shaun King (pastor of Courageous Church) about “Drastic Measures To Avoid Moral Failure.” I was proud of Shaun, but disappointed with the readers who commented that he was [...] [...] a few months back when I read an article by Shaun King (pastor of Courageous Church) about “Drastic Measures To Avoid Moral Failure.” I was proud of Shaun, but disappointed with the readers who commented that he was [...]

]]> By: Liz http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9689 Liz Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:14:41 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-9689 This reminds me of something that happened years ago when I first became a "participating" member of a church. We were shopping for a new pastor and they had one of those meet and greet with a time for questions. One thing that I had really admired about the pastor who had left was the way he had an open door policy two days a week - the other days were for meetings, appts, prayer, preparing sermons. If you had something you wanted to discuss with him or ask for advise you could drop in on him. He asked if it was going to be longer than 30 mins that you made an appt. So - I asked this pastor what his practice was as far as open door, appts etc. He immediately went into some long diatribe about how he would never meet with a woman alone blah blah blah. I didn't really get my question answered and I felt like I was being treated as if I had made a sexual advance. It was very embarrassing and demoralizing to me. I think a better solution would be to NOT announce that you are not meeting with women alone and if you feel it is necessary you could take some other precautions - meet in a public place like a coffee shop or have a place set up in the lobby of the church where you will be sitting in the open but no one is close enough to hear your conversation (there aren't that many people at church during the day) or glass doors so that people can see in your office when the door is closed. These are things that could be done and the woman would never know the difference and you could be protected. I personally think it seems unneccessary but if this is what you and your wife are comfortable with I think there is a more sensitive way to handle this so that you don't make women feel like they are being thought of as sexual objects and/or deviants. I wonder how you handle women on staff and how you think a woman who is a pastor should handle this situation - what about youth ministers - they are often men who are working with a lot of women volunteers - and then there is the music minister who is often a man working with a lot of women in the choir. It seems that this kind of restriction could really get in the way of doing God's work. This reminds me of something that happened years ago when I first became a "participating" member of a church. We were shopping for a new pastor and they had one of those meet and greet with a time for questions. One thing that I had really admired about the pastor who had left was the way he had an open door policy two days a week – the other days were for meetings, appts, prayer, preparing sermons. If you had something you wanted to discuss with him or ask for advise you could drop in on him. He asked if it was going to be longer than 30 mins that you made an appt. So – I asked this pastor what his practice was as far as open door, appts etc. He immediately went into some long diatribe about how he would never meet with a woman alone blah blah blah. I didn't really get my question answered and I felt like I was being treated as if I had made a sexual advance. It was very embarrassing and demoralizing to me. I think a better solution would be to NOT announce that you are not meeting with women alone and if you feel it is necessary you could take some other precautions – meet in a public place like a coffee shop or have a place set up in the lobby of the church where you will be sitting in the open but no one is close enough to hear your conversation (there aren't that many people at church during the day) or glass doors so that people can see in your office when the door is closed. These are things that could be done and the woman would never know the difference and you could be protected. I personally think it seems unneccessary but if this is what you and your wife are comfortable with I think there is a more sensitive way to handle this so that you don't make women feel like they are being thought of as sexual objects and/or deviants. I wonder how you handle women on staff and how you think a woman who is a pastor should handle this situation – what about youth ministers – they are often men who are working with a lot of women volunteers – and then there is the music minister who is often a man working with a lot of women in the choir. It seems that this kind of restriction could really get in the way of doing God's work.

]]> By: You Need to Read These! — Shaun in the City http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-9525 You Need to Read These! — Shaun in the City Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:18:19 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-9525 [...] I am about to add some clarification to this controversial blog post of mine. [...] [...] I am about to add some clarification to this controversial blog post of mine. [...]

]]> By: Revisiting “Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure” — Shaun in the City http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-7862 Revisiting “Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure” — Shaun in the City Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:37:36 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-7862 [...] months ago I wrote what has been the most popular, discussed, debated post on this blog entitled Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure.  The comments there are even better than the post and the discussion is pretty raw and revealing [...] [...] months ago I wrote what has been the most popular, discussed, debated post on this blog entitled Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure.  The comments there are even better than the post and the discussion is pretty raw and revealing [...]

]]> By: BillyMcGuiness http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-7034 BillyMcGuiness Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:02:35 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-7034 Heather, you are going to far extremes to make a point. To do so is comparing apples and oranges. Do I think a women should dress modestly? Yes. Does she need to cover her head, and face, and where a big frumpy amish dress? No. Does a women need to be careful about "showing her female shape?" Yes! I don't blame women for being attractive... That's silly. But to not acknowledge what it has the capacity to do in a mans heart and mind is foolish of a women. You don't dress in tight close cause they are comfortable. The bible is clear that we should not be a stumbling block. It is also clear that we aren't "living for "me" anymore." Faith alone doesn't keep us from sinning. It's not Pious to acknowledge that I have a capacity to sin at any moment. Does that mean I'm on the verge of sinning all the time? Yes and no.... I have a sin nature. Does that make me unable to lead people? No. I think you have a super human view of what church leaders look like. and with that kind of perspective you will be disappointed every time. Heather, you are going to far extremes to make a point. To do so is comparing apples and oranges.
Do I think a women should dress modestly? Yes. Does she need to cover her head, and face, and where a big frumpy amish dress? No. Does a women need to be careful about "showing her female shape?" Yes! I don't blame women for being attractive… That's silly. But to not acknowledge what it has the capacity to do in a mans heart and mind is foolish of a women. You don't dress in tight close cause they are comfortable. The bible is clear that we should not be a stumbling block. It is also clear that we aren't "living for "me" anymore."
Faith alone doesn't keep us from sinning. It's not Pious to acknowledge that I have a capacity to sin at any moment. Does that mean I'm on the verge of sinning all the time? Yes and no…. I have a sin nature. Does that make me unable to lead people? No. I think you have a super human view of what church leaders look like. and with that kind of perspective you will be disappointed every time.

]]> By: Paul http://www.shauninthecity.com/2009/03/drastic-measures-to-avoid-moral-failure.html/comment-page-1#comment-4132 Paul Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:48:26 +0000 http://www.shauninthecity.com/?p=587#comment-4132 I don't know what to do or how to even begin the process of change. I've been on my knees praying the entire week. I just finished reading the blog drastic measures to avoid moral failure and I can honestly say I am running at full speed into a pit of total spiritual and moral decay. The company I have been working for is in shambles and has yet to pay me for 3 months of work, my roommate's house is getting foreclosed, and another roommate is in the process of killing himself with cocaine and heroin. I would like to think I could be the shining light that is a beacon of hope to these two, but instead I find myself sinking into a mind set of desperation. I have sent over 2,000 resumes out and I was blessed with a job, pt that pays 7 dollars an hour. I have move from this situation because it is tearing my soul to pieces. And of course the first thing my mind runs to is selling drugs. I can barely find a job to support myself, but the dealers believe in me enough to give me a kilo to sell. Do I live comfortably by destroying the lives of men, women, and families by feeding addictions? Or do I reach out and make myself transparent and believe my God is greater than all the forces that wish to see me submit to a life of evil and death? My Father in Heaven will not allow me to fall when I reach out for him and I don't know how I am going to get out of this, but I know I need help from people who's hearts belong to the King of Kings. I need help, I need help now and I am hoping and praying it will begin with this post. Paul I don't know what to do or how to even begin the process of change. I've been on my knees praying the entire week. I just finished reading the blog drastic measures to avoid moral failure and I can honestly say I am running at full speed into a pit of total spiritual and moral decay. The company I have been working for is in shambles and has yet to pay me for 3 months of work, my roommate's house is getting foreclosed, and another roommate is in the process of killing himself with cocaine and heroin. I would like to think I could be the shining light that is a beacon of hope to these two, but instead I find myself sinking into a mind set of desperation. I have sent over 2,000 resumes out and I was blessed with a job, pt that pays 7 dollars an hour. I have move from this situation because it is tearing my soul to pieces. And of course the first thing my mind runs to is selling drugs. I can barely find a job to support myself, but the dealers believe in me enough to give me a kilo to sell. Do I live comfortably by destroying the lives of men, women, and families by feeding addictions? Or do I reach out and make myself transparent and believe my God is greater than all the forces that wish to see me submit to a life of evil and death? My Father in Heaven will not allow me to fall when I reach out for him and I don't know how I am going to get out of this, but I know I need help from people who's hearts belong to the King of Kings. I need help, I need help now and I am hoping and praying it will begin with this post.

Paul

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