Yesterday my wife & I were searching for a place where our kids could eat for free. With a family of 6, my wife I agreed that we would only take the crew out to eat if the kids ate for free or we used certificates from Restaurant.com (which you should only get with a coupon code). Anyways, I am going to take a risk and tell you about a politically incorrect discussion we had while we were choosing our spot to eat.
THE SETTING
We located a restaurant that we really like. Kids eat free there until 7pm. This restaurant has two locations in Atlanta. One is VERY close to our house and one takes about 20 minutes to get to. It was 6:30pm.
THE PROBLEM
Of course it would make sense to go to the close location right? The thing is…the location close to our house is very, very gay. Gay staff, gay patrons, located directly across from a very popular gay bookstore in a very gay neighborhood.
The food is great. The place is clean. It is close to where we live. It’s just really, really gay. Last time we took the crew there a gay couple was kissing in the restaurant and several other gay couples were just doing what any couple would do – holding hands, sitting close, looking adoringly at one another, etc.
THE CONVERSATION
Wife: Let’s hurry up and go Shaun so we can make it before 7pm.
Me: You know though….the spot on Piedmont is very you know what.
Wife: Do you think we could make it to the other location in time?
Me: Sure. We have to hurry though.
Wife: Do you remember how to get there?
Me: No. Let me google it.
Wife: Skip it babe. We have to go. Let’s just take a chance and go to the spot close by.
Me: OK. Let’s roll.
YOUR THOUGHTS?
When my wife and I got there – I told her that I hated that we felt the need to avoid certain parts of town. Do you avoid certain parts of your town? Do you so because they are too black, too white, too gay, too poor, too rich? Why?
How do you feel about my conversation and decision above?
{ 45 comments }
If we avoid 'em, how could we reach 'em?
First of all, I am so happy to learn that the place you mention offers kids eat free. I didn't know that, and can't wait to have my 3 children (and 1 on the way) eat for free.
Life is a balance between protecting your children from things they don't need to see or experience (depends on their age and maturity) and letting them experience the true world with all of its challenges so that you can be beside them when they do. If they are fully protected or if they are never allowed to fail in your care, you are setting them up for a big shock and/or big failure when they no longer have you. Once they leave the nest, you've done the majority of your parenting. You can just hope that you've equipped them to handle all of the challenges they will face on their own.
I feel that your conversation is a realistic conversation that all parents have (or should have) at various levels throughout the parenting process. We can embrace and love those who are different from us, but we can't sacrifice our children in the process. Likewise, we can't sacrifice giving our children the right experiences at the right time of seeing love in action.
On weekends it is very HETERO… I go there a lot nowadays and have never had your experience. And to the real issue here, it is not about you being phobic, but about appropriate disclosure to kids. Some people do not want their kids going to funerals because they think it confuses the kids…some choose TV programs to avoid…even culture rates movies from G to NC-17 to gauge propriety. The responsibility of parenthood is not rooted in prejudice, but in stewardship. We make choices for our kids, not against a person or people or situation.
I'm fortunate to live in a small town out in the sticks, nestled in the mountains. No problems with "those" areas around here, right?
When I first moved here, I was told to be careful NOT to go into this area, because they were always doing drug deals back there and you could get shot just for driving into their space.
I don't have a problem going any place, though, really — because either I'm really naive or my faith is just that simple, that if God sends me, going is not my problem, it's His.
As for your example of not going to a "too gay" place or a "too black" place — the only thing that would have slowed me down for the restaurant visit would have been the children. Not that I don't want them to see so much, but how to explain what they see. I used to be one of those legalistic types who thought you had to boycott places that served "those" people. Then God reminded me He died for "those" people and how was I shining a light for them by pretending they don't exist?
To answer your question directly, Shaun, I feel like the only thing left out of the conversation for time's sake was preparation for the kids, but I'm thinking you guys had that planned anyway. The decision…. rocked.
Jim, people aren't "critters". They are P-E-O-P-L-E. I work with an organization in downtown Atlanta that serves the homeless. It's people like you with your attitude that you are better than others that causes problems. Jesus said that the greatest among us will be the servant of all … if you take that all the way back to the Greek you will see that the word servant is the same word that we use today to describe ministers.
And Shaun. I love the Jason's Deli in midtown. We eat their frequently, with our kids in tow. My husband and I want to positively impact the world around us and to teach our children to do the same. How can we teach our children to love "the world" if we are always hiding from it?? Jesus said to be IN the world, not OF the world. He didn't say that we should inconvenience ourselves to drive to the other side of town to avoid the world. You, your sweet wife and your kids could make such a huge difference in the lives of the staff and patrons if you dine there and show the unconditional love of Christ … loving others naturally leads to a relationship which in turns allows us to share truth (truth in LOVE) with others.
In light of our (Christians) job description – Matthew 28:17 what an awesome witness we make when we show the love of Christ just by being the lights we were created to be, just by showing up! The seed you planted by just being there, a man, a woman, beautiful children together, as a family, is immeasurable. It is our lives that preach and what we say and do or don't do for the least of these is exactly what we do to Jesus.
The story of the good Samaritan comes to mind for me. For so long the "church" has passed by on the other side. We can not do this anymore. The idea that someone or somewhere can be too gay/ black/ etc… is unimaginable. It doesn't even make sense. People are people no matter what. Jesus told us to love him and love our neighbor as ourself.
So, go to your neighborhood and love those gay people. Because… they are people too. They are not to be avoided like the plague. Be slat and light.
Being a pastor and the whole church and religion aside…
Fact of the matter is the fact that the kids were involved.
I would bet that this wouldn't have been an issue if it were just you and your wife. It appears to me that the both of you need to have a serious discussion as to what are you two willing to expose your kids to. My parents were considerate of what I got exposed to when I was younger–which was fairly liberal. My mother had two female co-workers who lived together and who I had spent the night at their house with their nieces and nephews. Also at said place of work (not-for-profit of course) my mother was on the board and it full of a lot of older gay white women and men.
No thang but a chicken wang for me.
But, since I'm a member of an open and affirming church back home, it is an issue for parents as to what level and what age do they want their kids exposed to it. Honestly, it doesn't have to do with prejudices or bigotry, it could simply be that as a parent, I don't feel like explaining to my seven year old–YET–about gay lifestyles, for whatever reason.
Your kids are going to be exposed to this and many other things with which you will have opinions. Better that you face it head on than let “others” have their influence unchecked.
Hey Alicia! I agree with you completely. In this post I am hoping to expose some of the flaws in the way we think and look at issues (and people) as Christians.
I hope you are doing well!
Shaun & Crew
Come on Jim! Who and what are you referring to as critters man?
I have to say that I do understand when it comes to your kids and wanting to protect them in the environment in which you live…. At the same time, it doesn't really matter where you live, especially when you live in a metropolitan city. Whether you may believe homosexuality is right or wrong really doesn't matter when it comes to be open to every person in the world. You mention gay, but reality check: gay is only being attracted to someone of the same sex. Yes, they may be gay owned establishments, but let me tell you many many businesses that you may try and stay away from are gay owned or managed, been to a retail store lately.
The church still continues to exclude people that are gay, because of how they believe. The one main reason is because you don't see a lying cheater with his piece on the side next to his wife, or the alcoholic that may not be drunk at that particular service. You see if 2 people of the same sex come into church and sit together hoping to gain insight and feel the Spirit just as anyone else. More importantly, has the church forgotten its mission?? It is to be the light, not whether it can or should be the light.
Pt.2: Church isn't just the place you go on Sunday, church can happen in your car, walking down the street, at work, etc etc. Yet, many have made it that way, then head right back out in their judgeful, sinful manners, striking down others because of their own ignorance and intolerance, showing a true lack of what love is. All you have to explain to your children is that there are such a variety of beautiful people in the world, and we are too love everyone. If I am gay I am still suppose to love, right, so in return if I am straight I am suppose to love as well…. It's time to stop throwing the Scripture and start releasing the love that Christ has given each of us to everyone. We are not people changers, we do not get to see all the fruit, but we are to be the seed planters. Our reward is not here, but with our Savior in Heaven.
Oh, and Shaun this is not directly aimed at you! lol But, in general to people reading to gain a new perspective that we are all one in the same. Love is the answer and the key to this life, not condemnation and judgment or being scared to face the unknown…. People are people and all are looking for love, and the love of Christ is that love answer….
Not sure I understand man. Be more specific.
I believe we are born tolerant and that bigotry on any level is learned, so unless it's an issue about safety — like, you don't feel comfortable having your car parked in the parking lot because it might get jacked while you're inside or there's a crack house next door — I think you might underestimate the level to which your kids will even question some of the differences around them, like race, sexual orientation or even income level.
I didn't know a lot of black people as a young child; sure, my parents had a few African American friends and I had Susan and Gordon on Sesame Street, but for the most part, I lived in an upper-middle class white part of suburbia. Asians were rare, African Americans were scarce and hispanics were nonexistent in my pre-public school world view. In kindergarten (this was fall 1988), there was a black boy in my class — Robert (I still remember his full name but I won't post it, interwebs, you know) — and he might have been one of the first black kids I ever met in person. I wasn't raised to think that there was anything wrong or different about this, and so, when he gave me a Hot Wheels car and asked me to be his girlfriend the second or third day of school, I accepted without second thought. The whole taboo of white and black people being together wasn't even explained to me until AFTER I excitedly told my mom about my new boyfriend. And to my parent's credit, they didn't say I couldn't be his girlfriend, my mom just explained why it was something that didn't always happen. In retrospect, I wish she hadn't even gone that far (because really, what was the harm). The end result was Robert was my boyfriend for a few more days until we each got interested in other people (as kindergartners are prone to doing).
Similarly, the whole idea that there was anything "wrong" with being gay wasn't evident to me until I was in third or fourth grade. Before then, my Uncle Farrell and Aunt Ronnie (who at this point, I might add, have been together for nearly as long as my own parents, who married in April of 1972) were just my dad's first cousins who sometimes cut my hair and had a house filled with collectible dolls and were obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. It was only after I was old enough to understand sexuality (which is different from sex, which I learned about at the beginning of first grade when I straight out asked my mom what it was and she told me), that words like "immoral," "wrong," "sin" and "abomination" "choice" and "abomination" even entered my lexicon. Up until then, I just assumed some people were like my Uncle Farrell and and his partner and that there was nothing wrong with it. I had to be exposed to the bigots to even grasp that it was wrong or something that could be used as a schoolyard insult. Fortunately, I did lots of community theater and drama classes and whatnot as a kid, so the damage was short lived and by the time I was 12, I was able to meet kids who knew they were gay, were afraid to admit it to anyone (and I was part of an children's acting company that was primarily comprised of home schooled kids or kids who attended religion-focussed private schools — I was the heathen Episcopalian kid) and I could understand at a very basic level (and this was when I was still extremely religious) that it wasn't a choice, it wasn't wrong and being exposed to it wasn't going to hurt me or my moral compass.
At the risk of being TL;DR — I think its important to think about the atmosphere your kids will be in (and I'm not a parent, so I can't understand the difficulties that must entail), but honestly, I have worked with enough kids from all kinds of backgrounds to see that the differences and barriers we see as adults as being so bothersome and worrisome, don't affect kids unless they've been taught to fear or judge that difference.
Hmm, I was surprised to see this conversation. I suppose I thought that by living in midtown and planting a church in midtown and seeing some of the previous postings about your church, that gay areas would not be places you would try to avoid. I live in your neighborhood and actually have been telling people about your church specifically because I thought it would not have the bias that so many churches have. I personally am not gay but was sooo happy to see a church that I thought was open to everyone.__And, did I see someone above refer to homeless people as critters????? Ugh! That is horrible. I hope these beliefs are not representative of The Courageous Church b/c if they are, I will definately stop attending. And, I hope the person making that comment is not allowed to have any contact with the people who are staying in the shelter b/c they deserve respect and love just like everyone else. Just because they don't have home, does not make them shifty!!!
As a minister and a single mom who raised 2 kids, I talked with them VERY early about lots of things. Yes it is an individual family call, but I made a conscious decision to weigh in as a parent sooner rather than later. Now that they are older (30, 22) both of them tell me how much they appreciate it.
In my work with elementary school youth, I found that parents are often waiting until their child is "ready" or "mature" enough to talk to them about stuff (like homosexuality) that they talk to me and each other about easily and frankly.(and, of course, filled with mis-information!) By the time we as parents believe our child is ready for the gay talk most of the time that child has seen it, heard it, and already formed an opinion about it, and none of that was based on any input from us parents. Again it is an individual choice that each family has to make, but sometimes as parents we try to keep our children babies (and drinking milk) long after it's time for solid food!
I live in a neighborhood of drug dealers, pimps, users, pushers and welfare families (some three generations).
I've drawn my weapon twice due to a home invasion and property line invasion.
People don't visit my part of town. I live in the ghetto. My girlfriend won't visit me because she doesn't feel safe.
We humans, and believers in general, are too soft. We grew up in the Nerf-culture. The world is a fallen and broken place. Teaching ourselves and our children how to navigate the world is our responsibility.
Somewhat off topic: Shaun, you keep bring up RACE in your tweets. This is racism. Why bring it up at all? I live in a place that is demographically similar to the ATL. I've also been there. Racial harmony is only hindered by bringing up skin color.
Alicia, I was joking around about critters. Please forgive me if I offended you. Please read my other entry above.
Thank you Former Youth Pastor for your comment about how much Shaun brings up race. Racism only exists in the mind at this point in America. If the African Americans would stop worrying so much about race, they'd be stunned to see that most people don't care about skin color. Sure there are still bigots and close-minded people, but those close-minded few are the true minority.
Although they may be in the minority, I think the problems that manifest themselves as racism might actually just be a subconscious prejudice. We use those words interchangeably and they have different meanings let alone different connotations. I think we should be as equally concerned about racism as well as the subconscious prejudices both blacks and whites deal with each day.
Agreed. But my friend, the only people who talk about color are African Americans. They purposefully remove themselves from the mainstream. They've created an entire racially driven subculture i.e. BET, Ebony Magazine, etc. You don't see white people trying to have the White History month or the White channel. I think it's hypocritical for the black community to whine about racism when they are the only people group pushing it down everyones throats.
The statement that African-Americans are separating themselves is quite untrue. Have you watched TV recently, sure there is BET, etc etc., what about the Latino channel/s. Unless you know Spanish you are out in the cold, and the people that are in those shows are Latino. Just like various magazines catered toward certain demographics. That is just 1 example that I am referencing. Should there be racism-NO. Is it reality that there is racism-YES. So we must deal with that, because racism is something that is taught. We can reference Scripture when Christ speaks of loving children and his interaction with them. They are so eager to learn, and accept and grow but, as adults we stop learning and changing. We develop this I am better attitude. When I reference a friend I don't say I have a black friend and his name is, I say my friend's name is…. (color is obsolete) Yes, at some point we really just need to grow up and realize everyone has their own talents and traits, and that there is an inner beauty in all of us.
So is the issue that the establishment is "gay" or is the issue that you didn't want your kids to see two adults ("gay" or otherwise) making out in public?
If it's the "gay" issue… it comes off as rather hypocritical seeing as you just posted about race. If it's the latter then I wholeheartedly agree with you. There's a time and place for everything and there are just some things that kids shouldn't be exposed to. With that being said… knowing that the place was very "gay" and the behavior that is exhibited there isn't something you would want to experience (again – considering you knew what to expect from a prior visit) why go and expose your children anyway?
Maybe I'm confused…
I can agree with you on the points of "black" tv and "black" magazines, etc because I've said the same thing for years…
It's somewhat of a double standard… I digress.
My issue is this… you're kind of off when you say that "the only people who talk about color are African Americans" could it be that the only people you HEAR are African Americans because you are turning a blind eye to the other racists that walk the Earth? To ME you've got to be to make a blanket statement like that. Then again it could just be because I'm African American… ionno.
I am not just talking about racial diversity. I am also talking about gender diversity. I am also not talking about Black & White, but this nation is way too diverse for us to still be hosting so called "national" conferences represented by such a small minority of people. I love the guys hosting the ARC Conference, but my beef is that this nation is full of African American, Latino, and Asian men & WOMEN that are rarely represented at conferences designed to reach everyone.
Hey Tasha,
The establishment is not a gay establishment. Our primary concern with it is that we see a lot of PDA there (primarily gay, but all types really). Explaining this to our 2, 6, and 9 year old children is not where we are just yet.
We went ahead and went there because it was close and we have not seen it this way every time. No PDA was seen yesterday :-)
Thanks for your very thoughtful and insightful comment Christina.
Hi Shaun
I feel that children need to see that they will meet all types of people in this world, and as Christians it isn't our job to judge them but to show love and respect to all. Obviously, if a straight couple or gay couple were behaving in an inappropriately intimate manner in public that is a different matter, and I would choose to protect my children from that
Angie x
Hey Liz,
Thanks for your comment. My purpose of posting this comment (and others) is to spark what I think are much needed conversations on very difficult issues that too few people talk about. This is actually a part of the mission of our church.
You are right that our church is open to ALL PEOPLE and all types of people are a part of our community now. I just wanted to give a glimpse into my personal life as an illustration of the choices that we all make.
Thanks for sticking with us!
PS – Jim wrote me and apologized for his comment. He meant it in a way that was clearly not conveyed.
Got it… :)
See I knew we could have an adult exchange without all the extras *looks around* LOL
I think it wouldn't be considered racist if other races understood why the subculture was created. BET and Ebony magazine and things of that nature were created because there was very little representation of Blacks in the media. And if we were represented, it was not positive. Even now, on tv, there's few "Black" shows. There's shows like Friends and Two and a Half Men with primarily all-white casts, but there's maybe 3 shows with primarily all-black casts. By the way, I'm not prejudiced against these shows, I think they're both hilarious.
Black History Month was created because for so long Blacks had not gotten recognition for their accomplishments. No, it does not happen in this day and age, but no one can deny that it used to. Since there's still too few Black leaders, Black History Month is a necessity to show young Black kids that they can accomplish whatever they set their mind to.
I don't feel like Black people are pushing anything down everyone's throats. No one is forcing you, or anyone else, to watch or read Black media. I feel that those avenues are appropiate because Black people are still not positively represented in the media. Even on BET, there's still situations that make us looke ignorant and foolish. But especially on the news and places like that, when was the last time you saw something positive about a Black person? Unless he was doing something extraordinary like giving out presents to inner-city students [ ;-) ], Black people are made out to look like all they're doing is killing and robbing and living on welfare unmarried with their 6 kids.
Also, I don't think anyone would have a problem with an all-white channel, provided this channel wasn't trying to stir up ideas of racial supremacy. Unless I'm being naive, I don't see a problem with it. My only question would be, for what?
I think it's your choice how you choose to parent your children. Now as they get older, they're going to ask why you're passing Restaraunt A just to go to the same restaurant that's further away.
I'm sure you already know that you're going to have to expose it to them one day. The only question is when (hopefully before they're old enough to realize it on their own). And also how (hopefully not in a way that makes it seem like gay people have the plague or something).
like i said,shooting a video at a homeless shelter.It's not the safest part of town,but they are doing some amazing work with people there and my job is to capture the stories behind the numbers.I've had to trust God to overcome my perception and for the work that He has led me to.Hope this more specific
I bring up a lot of stuff in my Tweets. I have over 7,000 of them. Less than 1% mention race. You just pay more attention when I bring race up.
How is talking about race racist? That logic is flawed at best!
Hey Friend! Race and racism is much more alive than you may understand. However – this post is not just about Black & White. It's about how we live in an amazingly diverse nation of gifted men and women and how so many of the leading "national" Christian conferences lack anything close to diversity.
PART1: Well, since I don't really talk with people a lot (kind of shy, or just find it really hard to trust people nowadays), I decided I should start by voicing my opinions on your blog. While I do believe I would be uncomfortable being around a mostly gay area, I would not avoid it because of that reason. With my old church, they would reach out even more toward gay people, in hopes that they would be willing to go to a Bible Talk, or even attend Church service. I don't avoid certain parts of town. I go where I need to go for groceries, Church, school, etc…but I don't go to areas I don't NEED to go to. I have been in mostly black areas (and live in an area where the majority of people are black…and I was raised in an area which started out mostly white, but is now is mostly black. I support racial diversity and HARMONY-but think as a nation (and in ATL), that we live among eachother, but we live separate from eachother.
PART2: I support your views on maybe "sheltering" your children from seeing the gay couples, but if you were out with your wife, friends, or even alone-would you consider sharing your faith with a gay person? At some point or another, your children are going to want to ask you about the two guys they saw holding hands walking in the park…just an example, but it's bound to happen in time. I just got the sort of feeling that you were discriminating against gay people. I mean, honestly, I do believe that being gay/gay marriage is totally against the Bible, but I wouldn't shun people who are. I'm trying to seriously live like Jesus, and if I saw a gay person walking near me, or around where I am, I wouldn't turn the other direction and walk away. I'd continue on walking, because we are all human-and only God is supposed to judge. Well, that was my two-cents (& my first 2 comments on here!)
I wish you would be a scholar and learn why these subcultures had to be created. If you did some unbiased research on the history of media in America you would see why. Jim Crow was just 40 years ago. And that is part of the reason why there is a Black History Month because in your case you were not given by whatever school you went to the tools, the history and experiences that shaped our America. Our experience encompasses more than slavery, MLK, and Hip-Hop. But you would know that if you were a true scholar. When the Civil Rights Bill was passed, racism didn't just stop. Like the Bill immediately telepathically erased it from everyones mind for there on to eternity. You will be a fool to think so. And in light of this past election how it polarized America, esp. Georgia and all of my own personal experiences: Racism and bigotry is alive and well.
I was disappointed to read this blog. I have a 2 year old and one of the things I love about the church that I currently attend is that we are so open to all walks of life, including gay and lesbian. I was considering checking out your church just out of curiosity, but to know that just the idea of bringing your children to the FB causes so much strife, I think I know all I need to know. You may say you are open to all but your blog says otherwise.
Hello EBG,
The purpose of this particular blog post was to reveal my transparent thoughts (and struggles) with this issue. Part of my concern with this location of FB is the public display of affection. I have a 4 kids under the age of 9 and we just haven't explained all of this yet.
I'd love for you to still check us out and let us know your raw, honest thoughts.
Take care,
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
I have not read any of the above comments as I wish to have a clear perspective on this writing. What comes through for me is a story that was written in a Sunday School paper that I will never forget.
It was about a couple walking on the beach. They were living together (as some would people say "living in sin").
What Jesus saw was the people, not the sin and he loved them just as they were. I do not remember the fest of the story as that was all I needed to take with me. i have never forgotten that.
I met a young gay man several years ago and he is one of the most beautiful people I have ever met. I love him for who he is. His spirit is so beautiful. Is he a Christian? No, I don't think so. But he lives his life far better than most people, in truth, honesty, love, and beauty etc.
From the Sunday School lesson, I took – love the person, not the sin. This is what I believe God wished me to take. The gays I know (I only know male gays though) are some of the most beautiful people on this earth and I call them my friends.
Shaun, I have 2 children, (grown up now. ) I thank God for my children who taught me many things, including to love others as they are. I too, once looked at gays differently, The beautiful innocence of my children opened my eyes to perhaps looking at things a little like God does.
That's not to say I am entirely comfortable with same sex people kissing etc, in public and that I would be exactly really comfortable in a gay restaurant etc if there was an abnormal amount of physical affection, however, I trust that I would be given the grace of acceptance and if accompanied by children I know that whatever happened would be part of God's plan for both myself, the children and the patrons.
Hmmm….
I've been meaning to respond, but work got in the way. Quite candidly, reading this post was a lesson in patience. I was just holding my face as I read it, trying to make sure my eyes didn't roll up into the back of my head. I think the simplest thing to say is…
So what's the problem again? Do you believe that the gays will poison the food? Or that when they hold hands, kiss, or do those things that everyone else does that….what? In short, when you reread what you said, does it make sense? & if it does, are there some other thoughts – rather, fears – that you're not voicing?
Hey!Thanks for your comment. This post was supposed to be a vulnerable post that exposed the thought process (good or bad) that sometimes goes into where people choose to eat, shop, dine, etc.When you choose to eat out, do you have places you prefer to go? Why? Places you almost always stay away from? Why?Of course I don't think anyone will poison our food, but I have not yet explained same sex relationships to my four children (all under age 9).– Shaun KingLead Pastor, The Courageous ChurchWeb: http://www.Courageous.tvBlog: http://www.ShaunInTheCity.comPhone: 404.461.9850
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