DISCLAIMER:: I try very hard to not just blog about topics that I am a self-proclaimed expert on (like the Ultimate Fighting Championship), but to share with the world my thoughts on issues and events that may be in-progress, incomplete, or worse (believe it or not, I am sometimes, wr..I can't bring myself to say it…wro….wrong.) Several months ago I blogged about how I hope The Courageous Church will approach the issue of homosexuality. I learned a lot from the comments that many of you made and even more from the very moving personal emails and discussions that were spawned as a result of the post. Let's learn together on this post as well.
Yesterday, I learned that a great guy that is a big supporter of my ministry and a supporter of The Courageous Church is openly gay…kind of. A nasty fart letting, gun carrying, fight-watching fan of Vic Mackey like myself tends to see people as either straight or gay, but I am learning that between straight and gay is a place called GRAY that is often very, very complicated. Learning that this brother lived in the gray area really surprised me and I want to take a risk of sharing my feelings with you with the hope that you will benefit somehow from my journey. I asked my friend (let's call him James) permission to blog about this.
I like James. He is a sharp, smart, very educated guy. He has been really kind to me and to our church. James has told so many people about The Courageous Church that people wonder if he's on our staff. I really like that. He has ministry experience, is gainfully employed, and is a hard working man. My type of guy.
So…when I learned that James openly lives somewhere between straight and gay on the sexual spectrum, my immediate gut response was disappointment. I thought to myself, "Oh man. James is gay. That's not good. This is complicated. Could I still have James serve in our church if he's gay? No. I can't do that. How am I going to appropriately let James know this?"
I envisioned a balancing scale in my mind and started listing all of the good things I know and like about James. I put the fact that James is gay (kind of) on one side of the scale in my mind then started putting his wit, his work ethic, his friendliness, his desire to tell others about our church, and more on the other side. I'm not saying that this is appropriate, I'm just telling you what I was thinking. I decided that I would write James to discuss these matters and was
very humbled and moved by his response. More on that later…
Then I started to think about how un-courageous and unlike Jesus (not to mention impossible) it would be for me to disassociate myself with "sinners". I had the rather goofy thought that even if I was in a room completely by myself that I would still be associated with a sinner because I'm one too.
SIDEBAR:: Unlike a lot of folk nowadays, I still believe in the idea of sin and sinful behaviors. For me, if I don't believe in sin, I no longer see the need to believe in Jesus. But I believe in Jesus. Even with all of my education, I still believe that a real man, who was The Son of God, chose to die a horrible death as a sacrifice that would bring me and you (AND JAMES) closer to God.
Hear my heart, I am all for healthy masculinity. I'm all for marriage. I'm all for a lot of things. But above all of the very important ideas and goals and values that I have – I AM FOR THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST BEING A PLACE FOR ALL PEOPLE.
What are we to say about the fact that Jesus regularly befriended (and called to a higher standard of living) men and women that others hated or were afraid to touch?
How complicated of a game is it to keep certain people out of the church?
How do we choose who we want to be in the church and out of the church?
How do we justify alienating and casting out a particular group of people over another group of people?
Lord knows that I want The Courageous Church to reach thousands and thousands of people with a real message of love and transformation, but I will not abandon (or step on) one group of people to get to another because I think they are somehow better. As a matter of fact, I may step on and over "the better" people to get to the one lost sheep. I've been told by some GLBT men and women that our church will probably not have to wrestle with the issue of reaching GLBT folk because of our stance on homosexuality (which I still think is pretty doggone balanced). I pray that this is not the case…particularly after James sent me this message. I will only include excerpts.
playing a game and that I am just really a straight guy who likes the
attention of being assumed to be gay. You read correctly I do not like
labels as it relates to identity. As for me if I had to
place myself inside a category I would say that I am either Bi sexual
or Non Sexual.
When I first learned of your church, I was
attracted because of the encouraging words you told me when I was a
freshman in 2001. I doubt you remembered but you never knew the issue
or situation surround my needing encouragement. This is a good place to
insert that. I attempted suicide twice just before coming to Morehouse
and twice after I arrived. And I was struggling with the issue of
sexuality. I assumed God was punishing me on behalf of my father or
ancestors. I had trouble trying to understand why I felt the way I did.
A little more background I used to be a Baptist minister. I
actually even assisted at a local baptist church for a while. I resigned
because I felt I was living in conflict within myself.
Back to
why I attempted suicide. When I was young I was molested by an uncle
and older cousin. I was victim to crude sexual acts and penetration. I
had no home support because my mother was mentally ill, and my father
was abusive and an alcoholic. So when I began to enter into a
realization of my sexual identity there was some confusion. I wondered
why I felt attracted to males and females. I knew that being attracted
to males was unnatural. I began to wonder if I was gay because I was
molested or if I was molested because these family members knew I was
gay. My freshman year I joined the International Church of Christ, and
discovered that if I did not find peace with this issue I would end up
killing myself. You convinced me I had something to live for. That is
why I am still here.
So at this point I revealed to my family
about the molestation and they called me a liar and a faggot. I have
not heard from my father since then. I saw my mom for the first time
since 2002 in June of this year.
I went to seek professional
help. I went to the wellness center on campus and was often referred to
outside doctors. When I began to talk with people on campus about what
I was going through. I learned that not all gays were victims of
molestation and not all victims of molestation were gay. This was a
turning point for me. I began trying to find peace and tap into my
authentic self, beyond the issues, environments and circumstances.
Today
I do self affirm as I stated above as Bi-sexual or Non-Sexual.
Bi-sexual because I am attracted to both genders, and would we open to
a committed relationship/marriage with either one. Non-sexual because I
have not reached a point in which I am willing to engage in sexual
activity with either one. So I have chosen to abstain. This does not
mean I believe LGBTI people should. But I have just tried to focus my
attention on being as close to God as possible, and realizing spirit.
It gets a little lonely. But gays seem to reject me because I am
conservative and do ascribe to a more conservative, traditional way of
life (Go McCain) and mainstream reject me because although I do not
engage in acts, I do self affirm as a member of the LGBTI community. So
I have been from church to church and became turned off by it. So often
now I don’t go. (Church for those who don’t go to church?)
As
for your second question, I do not mind if you blog about the
experience. I do apologize for catching you off guard, with the issue.
I read the statements of faith on your page. So I was aware for your
standing. Although I have never found everything I needed in one place,
and while I know God is the abundant source of all, I didn’t expect to
find all the spiritual, encouragement, affirming love and support I
need in one church either. I actually removed certain pictures of me at
rallies and other events, so avoid that attachment being made to your
church. So I guess you understand my reluctance to become more involved
and engaged.
As you can see from the title of this post "Your Gay? No Way! OK." I went from surprise, to denial, to a deeper level of understanding after hearing from James about who he is. I still have questions for James and I am sure he has questions for me, but if I close the door now – neither of us will find the answers and be worse off for it.
FINAL CONCLUSIONS:: Doggone it, life is complicated. Life is hard. The world is complex. I don't know everything. You don't know everything.
But God knows and understands and cares about us ALL.
Ultimately, I am not interested in having a people-pleasing theology that makes GLBT people feel like everything is OK or makes homophobic people feel like it's fine to bash and alienate folk, but I want to build a community of faith made up of people that give everything they have to live like Jesus. If the worst thing people have to say about our church is that we take Jesus way too seriously, I'm OK with that. I have a feeling it's going to be a wild ride!
{ 26 comments }
I dont really know what to say for many reasons. But WOW, God bless you for your willingness to be upfront and real about your feelings in regards to this. I have often felt that we a the body of Christ dont truly know how to minister to homosexuals, and I pray that God grants us the wisdom and love necessary to reach them effectively. God bless you!
wow… i’m soooo open off this blog posting right now! i really wish that i had read this at home so that i could be free to feel about it outwardly…
first… shaun, the email that he sent you was so powerful and so emotional and thought provoking and intimate and vulnerable and all these great things. i think that it’s awesome that he felt like he could open up to you and be his real self. i LOVE that.
it’s funny because he and i (i don’t know if i know him) were at spelhouse the same years and i think we heard the same thing. that is sooo powerful that your words touched his spirit so much that he found a reason to live… do you know the power that has? that is AMAZING!!!
you know, it’s funny… because i’m definitely a jesus and God lover but i’m really liberal with my “judgements” of others. i feel like God has made us all so who are we to persecute or judge others based on their beliefs/practices/etc. God has made us all very different for a reason and i love his openness and his differences.
his email to you has made me want to throw my arms around him and smother with love because i know that he has tortured himself… i could probably go on and on and on about this but i’m going to end my soliloquy of a comment with this…
shaun, you have powerful words and an even more powerful presence… i really pray that God gives you the wisdom, understanding, compassion, and openness so that all walks of life feel welcome to hear you because i believe in you and know that you have something that we all need…
James, I want you to know if you ever need another Mother I am here for you. I would love to reach out to you and show love to you…an unconditional love. You seem to be such a bright young man with a great future and I want you to know that we all have battles to fight but you are in God’s light and keep on that path and all will work out. Love Mom
Love covers a multitude of sins.
Be Courageous enough to love!!
James:
First, I think you know that God loves you. Let me tell you that I’ve been where you’ve been and this is pretty awkward for me, since I don’t usually talk about it.
I want you to know that the Word of God will help you to understand who you are, sexually, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I want to submit something that may sound weird: “You are a summation of the WORDS you have heard througout your lifetime” … And Words create thoughts, thoughts create emotions, emotions help you make decisions, decisions lead to habits, habits lead to a destination. The destination that you are in my friend are in the Words you have heard over your lifetime. So if you want to change (and nobody can make you.) God makes HIS Word available so that you can change the above mentioned cycle.
The world will continue to tell you “Do what feels, right” or “Do what feels, good” But that’s not the Will of God for us. The Will of God is that we would prosper and be in health (1John).
All I’m saying is listen to GOD’S WORD, and allow it to tell you who you are, not anyone else man.
Shaun, I’d love to talk to our friend James, I know healing for me took place when I spoke to someone who knew the TRUTH about homosexuality, not what they made up. Hope this helps!!
Much Love,
BD
Remember: Nothing just happens!
Hey Kelli & LaDeBelle,
Thanks for your comments. Continue to pray for our church in the days ahead. We have a lot of BIG things (good stuff) hanging in the balance.
Take care,
Shaun
In case you all didn’t know (and you probably didn’t) NKK in the comment above is my wonderful Mother.
Love you mom!
Shaun
weird, this didn’t go through the first time… here we go again.
ps – shaun, your mom just sounds awesome :) reminds me of my mom! always the cheerleader, and the sweetness just oozes out of her words.
Shaun (if you don’t mind being called that),
I’m a fellow “Morehouse Man” (Class of 2006). I find your post very thoughtful and well-considered, but I take a number of issues with your conclusions.
First, I think your basic premise – that to be and act on an attraction to people of the same sex is sinful – is deeply flawed. You reach this conclusion based on your reading of the Bible. This is all well and good, but problematic. The Old Testament is clear on many things, but most of them (i.e. diet, slavery, holy wars, and the divine right of kings, to name a few) we ignore, because they no longer have relevance for our time. I can’t imagine, for example, that you think Hurricane Katrina, the Chinese earthquake, etc. are punishments from God for the sins of human beings.
Jesus was also very clear in what he expected from people – his sermons cover everything from manner & style of worship & fasting to divorce, manner of dress, wealth, and loyalty to the state. Given the breadth and depth of the statements attributed to him in the Bible, I think saying that “Jesus didn’t need to talk about queers because everybody understood” is pure speculation, and not substantiated by anything else, anywhere in the Bible.
Based on what we know of the teachings of Jesus, the inverse of your conclusion would seem to be true: that Jesus didn’t mention it – much as Jesus didn’t talk about diet, keeping specific holidays, how a church altar should be set up, or how to decide who the next leader should be – because IT DIDN’T MATTER.
I’m a child of God, I consider myself an increasingly religious person, and I describe myself as bisexual. I see no conflict, because, as best as I can discern thru searching and observation, there is none. If it was a spiritual problem, it would seem to be the only one that neither causes harm to others (as does physical violence, dishonesty, etc.) or separates us from God (as does greed, spite, etc.). I think we can both agree in the need to control lust, and to not reduce people to mere sex objects. But I must go farther and assert that people maturely expressing their love for each other in a healthy and mutually affirming way – regardless of what’s between their legs – is a glory to God. If Jesus said nothing else, he repeated over and over again that our faith in Him fundamentally means to love, and that the act of loving brings us ever closer to God. It is the only way to God.
In addition, from the standpoint of mental health (psychology, psychiatry, social work, etc.), there is no evidence that people who are at all attracted to the same sex have some kind of disorder. You cannot “get it”, nor can you be “cured” of it. Look up the mental health organizations (APA, etc.), and they’ll tell you the same thing. The desire to murder, to molest others, to steal, the lack of concern for other lives – all of these are disorders of some kind. Not being queer. Think about that.
So I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but I think your entire premise, that there’s something wrong or sinful with being queer (and being ok with that), is totally invalid. Notwithstanding the need to be loyal, honest, giving, and monogamous, everything IS or should be OK for any LGBT, etc. members your choice may have.
As to the brother who confided in you, he’s not in a “gray area”. On the contrary, he seems pretty clear about who he is. He’s attracted to both men and women, and has decided to be celibate for personal reasons. What we are increasingly coming to understand is that there’s a beautiful diversity of ways people are sexually oriented towards each other (and in how we relate to our gender – & masculinity & femininity).
I appreciate, though, that “James” has presented you with a different frame of thinking, with all kinds of unanswered questions. And it’s heartening to hear you emphasize inclusiveness and God’s love. But you do not need a “balanced” approach to dealing with us. You cannot “balance” our dignity. What you can do is accept us, and not hold our relationships to a higher – or even a different – standard than the one to which you hold your own.
I must apologize for my length, and the arrogance and presumption that is laced thru my points. It’s just that it’s so frustrating to hear voices of “moderation” and “tolerance” which tell me that my feelings/attractions are ungodly, and a sin just as is stealing, adultery, or indifference to suffering. If you’ve ever read King’s (’48) Letter from Birmingham Jail, or Bayard Rustin’s From Protest To Politics, you’ll hear exasperation at seeing advantaged (in your case, heterosexual privilege) people of good will acknowledge that they way we are treated is wrong, but who won’t take the needed but more difficult step of affirming and supporting us as we struggle against oppression.
With all this said, and I mean this sincerely, you seem to be doing a good work, and a Godly work, and I wish you Godspeed.
Hello, I will start off this comment with a portion of Gods holy word,
Romans 1:26-32, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
I’m sure this verse can also apply to man looking on man, woman looking on man, and woman looking on woman.
The Bible is extremely clear in what it says, homosexuality is wrong, if you are “bi-sexual” you should cry out to to Jesus(Yashua) and make him Lord of your life. I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but there won’t be any “bi-sexuals”(or gays for that matter) in heaven. it is an abomination to the Lord. I’m not saying it is wrong to let them come to your church or what not, of course not. You shouldn’t turn anyone away. Yet you should show them the true light, and pray for cleansing in their lives, tell them the need they have for Jesus. From what I know of the scripture as a teenager and from what I read what James wrote, he is in need of a saviour. He needs to see the light!! What is more important, to have James as a supporter of your ministry, or to see James with everyone else in heaven. I know what I think is more important, and if it meant for me to compromise any friendship, any support, if it even meant my death, to save one lost soul, I would do it willingly!
I will be praying for you Shaun and for James aswell, that you guys may see the light and the eror of your way. Don’t worry, everyone makes errors, I have, and I will probably still make errors, I hope someone is there to correct those errors, that is what family is all about, and I’m part of the biggest family ever.
To the comment from Adam, don’t get “love” mixed up with True Love.
Blessings.
oops sorry, I meant to say “to 3FlWhe” not “to adam”
Hey 3FlWhe,
Thanks for your comment bro. It is obvious that you have also really thought out your perspective. Generally speaking, all of us are on a very slippery slope when our main argument about any topic in the Bible is,
“I know what it says in the Bible, but I am choosing to believe otherwise on this particular issue.”
Help me understand (I’m being serious man) how you can agree to speak against lust and other issues of morality that are in the text, but not the issue of homosexuality?
Thanks for the dialogue man.
-Shaun
Hey Gabriel,
Thanks for your comment man. I am missing exactly what you are saying is the “error of my ways.” I see where you say that I am wrong, but I am not quite clear on what you are saying I am wrong about.
-Shaun
You had me at Vic Mackey. Thanks for another insightful and moving post.
I think one of the main issues here is to realize that we are to love all people with the Love of Jesus Christ BUT to hate the sin.
A lot of us don’t realize how truly damaging and empty homosexuality is. Sure there is a season where it may ‘feel good’ but it the end it is so empty and damaging as all other sin is in the end.
So, we should not be ‘condemning’ the gays out of their boots but rather showing them the truth in Love as Jesus did to the lady caught in Adultery. They are the one’s that will be hurting in the long run.
Btw, Great blog, Shaun.
so if there are no gays in heaven then what about liars, drunks, people who curse, adulterers, etc etc?
that’s equally as preposterous as the belief that God doesn’t give a rip if you’re gay.
i’m glad Gabriel doesn’t make the rules about who gets into heaven. God loves us and Jesus atoned for our sin. even though it’s paid in full it’s still sin and we still need to get away from it.
regarding whether or not God cares about our sexuality, there is clear evidence throughout both old and new testament that God abhors sexual immorality (homosexuality included under that blanket term). does that mean it’s sinful have sex with my wife for other purposes than procreation? no. but there is scriptural evidence of a design and plan that God set into motion for our lives – physical and spiritual. we choose to stray from it, and homosexuality (among many, many, many other issues) stems from this selfish desire to do our will rather than God’s.
new testament scripture indeed speaks to homosexuality and other sexual immorality, and it recognizes the authority of old testament scripture, which most definitely speaks to the specific issue.
remember, when Jesus was here in the flesh there was no such thing as a new testament. when the first century church as described in Acts was around there were maybe a few letters floating around, but no new testament. when you read of Jesus and the first century church reading scripture, delving into God’s word, what do you think they were reading and studying? that’s right, it was what we know of as the old testament.
focusing only on matthew/mark/luke/john and the following writings is short sighted and dangerous.
well from what you wrote in your blog post you pretty much said you accept the sin and the sinner when you were weighing the good and the bad. Andalso when you said you have a deeper understanding. In my opinion that is an Error, You are supposed to accept the Sinner, and hate the sin. You should tell the person that they are wrong in what they do.
To Adam what I meant by “no gays in heaven” is in heaven nobody will be gay, just like no one will murder in heaven, sorry I probably worded that wrong, I wrote it last night. I agree with you I’m glad I don’t make the rules on who gets into heaven, I’m also glad you don’t and I’m also glad everyone else doesn’t.
The New Testament(or Covenant) started when Jesus died on the cross, I wouldn’t say it is short sighted and dangerous to read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Jesus talks about the new covenant in those books.
I’ve got to go now, painting our deck.
God bless you all and give you wisdom in this. :)
Thank you Shaun. I appreciate His spirit pouring out of you and helping to guide me on how to approach friends in similar situations. My personal sin may not have been dealing with homosexual feelings are desires but I still needed pastors and spiritual parents to love and pray me through it. Thank you for reminding me!
“I know what it says in the Bible, but I am choosing to believe otherwise on this particular issue.”
Do you believe EVERYTHING in the Bible as being literally true? Like the suggestions that the earth is only +/-6000 years old? Where natural disasters are taken as signs of God’s displeasure with us? Should a child who swears at their parent be put to death? Would you ever accept Paul’s telling Timothy to be a good slave to his master as justification for the enslavement of our ancestors?
If your answer to any of those questions is no, then then you do not treat the entire Bible as being literally true. Not to mention the fact that given the complexities of translation, we can’t be entirely sure that what we’re reading has the same meaning to us as it did to the writers. And simply put, the truth is (as Rev. Dr. Parker in religion class pointed out), we all pick and choose various what parts of our holy books we emphasize. It is natural, esp. when the Bible has multiple overlapping books/letters/epistles and a number of contradictory passages (like the creation stories in Genesis).
Because of this, the very act of interpreting the Bible requires us to use our INDEPENDENT JUDGEMENT about how to apply its teachings to our lives. This means that we must make value judgements about a given passage’s meaning and relevance for our time. 2 Chronicles might be more relevant than Philemon. Not to mention the fact that for most of the Bible, asking “What would Jesus do?” is more accurately, “What would Paul/Moses/Habakkuk/Mark do?, as they were the writers of the parts that aren’t red-lettered.
The real question is why we choose the passages we do. As George Will put it, “life…is lived on a slippery slope”. Every choice we make has the potential to lead to unacceptable consequences. We have to use our powers of judgment – the reason, compassion, conscience, instinct, etc. – that God gave us to make sure we stop before we fall off the cliff.
So, to your point:
How you can agree to speak against lust and other issues of morality that are in the text, but not the issue of homosexuality?
We are children of God, endowed with intelligence, conscience, and the ability to discern that of God within, and God’s will as it pertains to our lives. And as the United Church of Christ put it, God is still speaking. So I don’t rely on the Bible alone. (In any case, don’t we rely on God to help us make sense of it?) St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t, when helping to develop the concept of natural law. & even Martin Luther King did not stop at the Bible when looking for inspiration.
On the website of your church, you have a link to Letter from Birmingham Jail. In it are many deep and profound truths. King references Paul, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and cites the sufferings faced by the early church. Yet he also draws from Socrates, T.S. Eliot, Thomas Jefferson (who once made his own Bible – which had the miracles removed), and Martin Buber; these men were either non-Christians or had some beliefs which were heresy. Should the civil rights movement be scorned because many of the techniques were learned from Gandhi’s satyagraha, substantially rooted in Hinduism & other philosophies? After all, he was not a Christian, and therefore was not Saved.
So, I assert that we have the ability to use the not just the text, & our understanding of its context, but thru (collective) discernment and use of our reasoning powers.
We apply this all the time, as I suggested earlier. No one would accept President Bush, or a President Obama (hopefully) going on national tv saying how they’d bombed some other country because the Lord told them it was full of heathens that had to be driven out; many of us, including myself, do not agree that women should not speak in church, as Paul said; we do not generally attribute biological disease to spiritual deficits.
The need to use our divinely-guided discernment brings me back to my point from yesterday: if being queer and doing queer things is a sin, then it must be the only sin for which we cannot find demonstrable harm. Acting on our feelings, does not require demeaning, attacking, violating, compromising, or dehumanizing anyone else. As someone who’s counseled couples of a variety of orientations, who’s taken graduate-level courses in mental health & family practice – and from my own life experience – I can tell you that two people of the same sex experience love just as those in opposite-sex relationships. There is the same love, hurt, nervousness, fear, joy, etc. People in same sex relationships can have a partnership that is trusting, stable, mutually affirming, and deeply rewarding.
Nor can any body of mental health experts see the problem with being gay, or bisexual (we don’t usually put a hyphen btn the bi and the sexual), transgendered, etc.
Talking about adultery means talking about betrayal of trust; talking about lust means talking about the potential for dehumanization and greed. What comes up when discussing queerness? When you look at two men, or two women sitting in Piedmont Park holding hands and smiling, or in the bank, opening up a joint account as a part of their decision to share a life together, what sins do you see being committed? What are they doing that should lead them to repent? I don’t know what you see, but I don’t see anything the matter. And again, as I said yesterday:
That’s because there’s nothing wrong.
Hey Gabriel,
Thanks for the dialogue man.
First off, let me say that I don’t believe God wants any of us to stay just how we are. That is New Age theology that I just don’t subscribe to. God is calling each and every one of us to higher standards of living that we must strive for every day.
I love James just as he is – broken, searching, bi-sexual and all. When I said that I put his sexuality on the scale and weighed it up against all that I know and really like about him, I never drew a conclusion and certainly never said that I would accept his sexuality just because he is a good guy. However, I may not have been clear so let me clarify my thoughts.
What I am saying is that so much is good and right about James that I will not allow his sexuality to cause me to abandon him. I just won’t. It’s not my interpretation of scripture to abandon people because of this.
One of the key differences between you and I, Gabriel, is that I am a pastor. God has called me to lead people. I have thought out how I will do this. I have prayed about it. I am called to do it and I am called to do it courageously in ways that may surprise you and others.
It is very easy to point and criticize my approach to ministry when you don’t really do any ministry yourself. James needs a guy like me to be open to leading him and seeing him through the difficulties of life. Too many people have already abandoned him and that just goes against my core understanding of what it means to be a Christian and certainly to be a pastor.
-Shaun
Hey 3FlWhe,
Thanks for continuing this conversation. I hope that you see my attempts to learn from you and others as sincere.
I understand and even sympathize with your points about homosexuality not harming anyone. You brought up the idea of two nice men or two nice women holding hands in the park and how this is not harmful to me or anyone else. I would almost agree with you because this seems to be true, but it isn’t.
What is missing from your entire discourse is that God has standards and codes and expectations that He expects us to live to honor Him. It doesn’t hurt anyone if you or I never give God praise and thanksgiving for all that He has done for us, but we do so because it’s the right thing to do.
God wants us to do and be way more than the very low standard of simply “not hurting anyone”.
With your logic of something being OK in the eyes of God as long as we determine that its not hurting anyone, I think we could open up the floodgates for a whole host of things.
-Who does lust of the mind hurt?
-Who does having protected sex with a relative hurt if it is consensual and never produces offspring?
-Who does having multiple wives hurt if everyone consents?
We could go on and on and actually argue that these things don’t hurt anyone if we could agree that God doesn’t expect anything of us, but that I can agree with.
-Shaun
There is a familiar hymn in the Christian Church by Charlotte Elliot. The story is told that Miss. Elliott was visiting some friend on the West End of London where she met a eminent minister Dr. Cesar Malan. One evening when they were having dinner, Dr. Malan spoke to Miss. Elliott and said I hope that you are a Christian. Miss. Elliott took deep offense and replied, “I would rather not discuss that question.” Dr Malan apologized for having offended here and simply stated, “I like to speak a word for my Master, and I hope that you will one day become a worker for Christ. The two meet nearly a month later at the home of a mutual friend and Miss Elliott shared that since their meeting, she had been trying to find her Savior and that now she wished for him to tell her how to come to know Christ. Dr. Malan said, “Just come to him as you are.” This she did and years later she wrote the hymn, “Just as I Am”
Good Day,
For the sake of this posting I will introduce myself as James. Over the years I have learned that although I am a student of theology and love theological discourse, in my loneliest moments my ability to quote the greatest religious and philosophical debaters provided no comfort for me.
Although I read my bible daily, admiring the relationships of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Paul, none of them gave me strength in the weakest of moments when I faced death through four suicide attempts, and two car accidents where friends lost lives.
Although I can sing, pray and preach it did not easy the pain and stress of hunger, shelter and sanctuary when I seemingly had no place to turn.
But in Jesus I found everything I needed and more. This Jesus, I read about and sang about did not love me with conditions even like my family did, “Jesus, loved me, this I know, for the bible told me so.” Jesus taught me that I have a special connection with God, A connection that could not be broken. This Jesus looked beyond my faults and saw my needs. When I encountered the Jesus person I did have, play dress up. He wrapped the Spirit of God around me and never said a mumbling word.
So I choose to come to him,
If I am invited I will come
If I am taken off the guest list, I will come
If I am well, I will come
If I am weak, I will come
If I have all the answers, I will come
If I know nothing, I will come,
If I am clean, I will come,
If I am dirty I will come.
So for me, there is nothing that can separate me from the Love of God not Death not Life.
I owe him too much. And he has been so good.
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
Here for a season, then above,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
When God made Me, God used the best materials available. No matter where I come from, no matter what I go against, no matter how I arrived, I am equiped with a God Source so powerful, obstacles vanish in my presence. I allow nothing to separate me from God and yet I am who am.
I love you all, and I know you all respond from love.
Shaun, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to listen.
I’ll try to be a bit shorter this time, although I must say, I think I’ve addressed some of the points you raise, several explicitly:
You said: “What is missing from your entire discourse is that God has standards and codes and expectations that He expects us to live to honor Him. It doesn’t hurt anyone if you or I never give God praise and thanksgiving for all that He has done for us, but we do so because it’s the right thing to do.”
I said: “If Jesus said nothing else, he repeated over and over again that our faith in Him fundamentally means to love, and that the act of loving brings us ever closer to God. It is the only way to God.” And I’ll elaborate. To not give thanks (which I try to do regularly, although not as I should), does hurt someone. It hurt US. To forget that we are led by the Divine is the way to get lost, and it means great emptiness.
You said: “God wants us to do and be way more than the very low standard of simply “not hurting anyone”.”
Again, loving people is what Jesus called us to do as Christians. As a matter of fact, he said that if we love each other, we have done what he asked of is. It is his commandment.
You said: “With your logic of something being OK in the eyes of God as long as we determine that its not hurting anyone, I think we could open up the floodgates for a whole host of things.”
This will be fun.
-Who does lust of the mind hurt?
~~Like I said, Shaun: “I think we can both agree in the need to control lust, and to not reduce people to mere sex objects.” “lust means talking about the potential for dehumanization and greed”.
-Who does having protected sex with a relative hurt if it is consensual and never produces offspring?
~The primary reason for the incest taboo is the rather elevated likelihood of having children w/ birth defects. When dealing with consensual adults who aren’t bearing children, it is more complicated. I certainly find it repulsive. We probably need to sit as a polity & figure out what to do about that.
However, it should be noted that Rebecca was Issac’s cousin; Rachel & Leah were Jacob’s first cousins. The tribes of Israel, then, were the product of incestuous relationships. (Given that, some nonsensical views on menstruating women, and levirate marriage, which no mainstream Christian practices – look it up – I don’t know if we want to trust the Bible too much w/ relationship advice.)
-Who does having multiple wives hurt if everyone consents?
~I don’t see too many ringing condemnations of polygamy in the Bible. See for yourself:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/polygamy.html
I think it’s a problem if the relationship is rooted in sexism, that the man somehow has more authority or importance than the women.
Now multiple husbands, that’s also interesting…
You said: “We could go on and on and actually argue that these things don’t hurt anyone if we could agree that God doesn’t expect anything of us, but that I can agree with.”
I have never said that the Lord does not have expectations of us, so I’m not sure where or how you’ve derived that from what I’ve said. All I have said is that using the Bible, our knowledge of biblical history (rather, the history of that time as we know it), discernment, and reason, that we could discern God’s will as it applies to our lives.
Finally:
“You brought up the idea of two nice men or two nice women holding hands in the park and how this is not harmful to me or anyone else. I would almost agree with you because this seems to be true, but it isn’t.”
What I’m not understanding Shaun, is why you – endowed with a God-given moral sense and more than adequate reasoning power – are looking at a situation, presumably with a clear mind, and are denying your own good sense. You have yet to actually describe the problem w/ the situations I described (involving same-sex intimacy & commitment); you resort to vagaries about standards and expectations.
In every part of life, even (or especially) when trying to apply the Text to our lives, we must use our moral sense to make an INDEPENDENT JUDGMENT. Don’t be afraid to be courageous (sorry, I couldn’t help it) and make yours, even in areas where the status quo does not support you.
Brother Shaun, Thank you for this dialogue. I am a young pastor also a Morehouse Man. And this issue has been bothering me for some time. I think I know who James is. As a matter of fact I am certain I know who he is. I am one of those Chapel Assistants who always thought he was joking about his sexuality. I remember he was outed in the school paper (Maroon Tiger) by a fellow Chapel Assitant who he entrusted in about his struggle.
From that moment on he became an outcastin the chapel although he could preach better and was more dependable than most of the chapel assistants and certainly me. He was deeply involved on campus and Several SGA Presidents, VPs and Senators have him to thank for there college political careers. I watched this man recruit over 250 members for Morehouse NAACP, Start a tutorial with Washington High, Raise NSCS from the dead and had King Chapel operating like Freindship Baptist Church. I have never seen anyone so dedicated to serving and so close to God’s own heart. This guy truly believes he can live like Jesus. Not just talk but walk. I watched him take in person after person and provide them with shelter two of which were fellow chapel assistants, who never openly came to his rescue.
James mentored me and helped me get real about my role as a servant of God. Thank You James.
I know what the Bible says. But I also know often we can get so caught up with following the text that we fail to move in the direction that is it pointing us to. My mother would often tell me as a child it’s ok to look down, but you will soon run into something if you never to look up. We as a church, A Christian Church, A Church of Jesus Christ, have to start looking up.
At some point I have to face my congregation and reconcile what I believe with what I know. Its not going to be easy, and I have alot for which to be afraid. But then again, I dont suppose God has given us a spirit of fear.
Well brother Shaun, the world is watching you on this one. I believe if anyone can address this issue, with love, understanding and gentle hands it is you.
James hang in there. It is good to see you out and about again. Dont ever go into hiding again, the world misses you.
Shaun, I've recently been turned on to your blog via a Twitter comment from Catalyst about the Free Breakfast. Dude, I love what you're doing. This homosexual thing is big for me right now as I recently left a church because of their response to homosexuality and a response to sin in general (or rather a lack of response). It seemed as though they were simply unwilling to confront sin, period. I'm all about love and grace, but not without confrontation and accountability.
On this issue of homosexuality, the big question is how do we accept AND deal (confront) in a Godly way. I think you've posed that question rather well here. Your friends story is engaging and heartbreaking. No one should have to encounter these kinds of tragedies in life, but this is the world we live in. I pray that James finds healing and experiences a truly abundant life in Christ, free from his past.
Question, how do you deal with people "serving" in ministry in your church who are struggling with these kinds of "lifestyle" sin issues? It could be homosexuality, drug addiction, adultery, etc. How are you responding to these types of issues and accepting the individual, but confronting the sin?