I strongly believe that banning women from ministry is a sin. It is wrong. In fact, I honestly think that preventing and banning women from ministry, pastoral leadership, and other positions of ministerial influence is on the same level
as banning men (and women) from particular ethnic groups from the same positions. While banning ethnic groups from ministerial leadership is now frowned upon by all of America’s major religious denominations, doing the same with women is still allowed. In fact, men like Mark Driscoll, the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, are speaking out so strongly against women in ministry, that they are really revitalizing the topic in a way that really shocks and disgusts me. If Mark Driscoll told me that Black men were not designed to be in all areas of ministerial leadership, I would be so absolutely offended that I would consider mashing him upside his head and challenging him to a UFC style brawl (even with my bad back I think I could take him because he simply talks to much trash publicly – a sure shaking his hand and challenging him to a real debate. Of course Mark Driscoll wouldn’t say that, but that is, in essence, what he is doing concerning women in ministry. This issue is personal for me and my wife and I have made it abundantly clear to both of our daughters that they could, if they feel called, serve as dynamic and successful Senior Pastors. To them, this is not even an issue up for debate.
sign of all-bark no bite syndrome)
Not only is banning women from equal access in ministry a sin, it’s just plain ‘ol stupid and unintelligent. In 2008, I feel half-stupid for even making the case because the case, in my opinion, has already been made and settled. If the only proof I had was this woman, that would be all I need. But I have seen, heard, and been taught by all of these women – so it makes what a few foolish men think seem, well…dumb. The Courageous Church, the church plant that a team and I are launching later this year, is a part of the Evangelical Covenant Church. One of the non-negotiable values for the denomination is the promotion of women to all areas of ministry (Senior Pastor, deacon, Board Chair, etc.). LifeChurch.tv, NewSong, Sanctuary Covenant, Bayside Covenant, and many other great churches are a part of this denomination and do a great deal to support this cause.
First off, let me say that it is UBER ironic to me that the primary spokesmen against women in ministry (particularly as Senior Pastors) are almost exclusively white men – the only segment (and a small segment at that) of the American population that has had virtually no ceiling or cap on what they can or cannot do in issues pertaining to church leadership (and leadership in general). How much easier is it for a man like Mark Driscoll to limit the access of more than half of the world’s population since he or his family do not have a personal history of dealing with gross forms of hatred and discrimination? While this is a fair question to ask, my personal rationale for promoting and celebrating and serving under women in ministry is not as some form of reparations for decades of mistreatment (although atonement and repentance are biblical and should play a role in how men handle this issue). My primary motivation is two-fold – an overwhelming Biblical mandate and my thoughts about the general equality of all humans.
Biblical Rationale
Out of all of the relevant biblical passages that I have listed below, I would like to draw your focused attention to one particular passage and person that I think begins and ends this conversation in many ways. In Romans 16:1, Paul speaks of a woman named Phoebe as a minister and deacon of the church. Phoebe is the only person in the New Testament who is named directly as a deacon(ess). Well, you may say, this in no way legitimizes women as Senior Pastors because Phoebe was a deacon.
Here is what you do need to know. Churches that do not allow equal access to women in ministry do so because they say it is biblical. However, NEARLY EVERY CHURCH THAT PREVENTS AND DISCOURAGES WOMEN FROM MINISTERIAL LEADERSHIP, ONLY ALLOWS MEN TO SERVE AS DEACONS. Why is this? They certainly don’t have this policy because it’s biblical. Phoebe was clearly a deacon and clearly a woman. These churches (which are overwhelmingly white and are either active or passively Southern Baptist) have deep roots in racism and discrimination (the denomination apologized here) that have lifted white, male leadership above all others – particularly women. Sadly, this just isn’t biblical.
There were many women recorded in the Bible who exhibited religious leadership.
Their stories appear in both the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and Christian
Scriptures (New Testament):
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Exodus 15:24: Miriam, the daughter of Aaron was a prophet and one of the triad of leaders of Israel during the Exodus from Egypt. |
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Judges 4 & 5: Deborah, a prophet-judge, headed the army of ancient Israel. | ||||
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2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22 Huldah, a prophet, verified the authenticity of the “Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses” – the Book of Deuteronomy. She triggered a religious renewal. |
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Acts 9:36 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple of Jesus by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick had died; St. Peter brought her back to life. |
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Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets. | ||||
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Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his co-workers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel. |
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Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. The Greek word which describes her function is “diakonos” which means literally “official servant.” She is the only deacon in the Bible to be identified by name. Some translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by mistranslating the Greek as a simple “servant” or “helper“. Paul later refers to Phoebe as a woman, calling her “our sister.” This prevented later church leaders from hiding her gender as they did with Junia in Romans 16:7 below – by changing her name and implying that she was a man. |
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Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his “fellow workers in Christ Jesus” (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a “co-worker“. But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a “helper“. The original Greek word is “synergoi“, which literally means “fellow worker” or “colleague.” 1 It is worth noting that Paul refers to Priscilla and her husband as “Priscilla and Aquila” in this passage and as “Aquila and Priscilla” in 1 Corinthians 16:19. It would appear that the order is not important to Paul. As in Galatians 3:28, he apparently believed that there is no distinction among those who have been baptized into Christ between male and female. |
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Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as “outstanding among the apostles” (NIV) Every Greek and Latin church Father until Giles of Rome (circa 1000 CE) acknowledged that Junia was a woman. 2,3 After that time, various writers and translators of the Bible resorted to deceptions in order to suppress her gender. For example:
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Equality of All Humans
This is a core, non-negotiable value for me. All humans are born equal. Whether you are born in the United States, Africa, China, or Iraq – you are equal. Limitations of discrimination are man-made and were not designed by God. Whether or you are born a man or a woman – you are equal. Being born short, tall, black, white, brown, fat, skinny, male, female, American, Iraqi, or any other way SHOULD NEVER prevent someone from pursuing the full extent of what God has for them.
Heck, the general equality of all humans is a core value of the United States and is what allows a Black man, a White woman, and a Senior citizen (not trying to be funny) to be running for the Office of President of the United States. It is ridiculous and plum stupid to me (but makes sense) that the doggone Christian church is the last American institution to fully embrace this principle.
Eugene Cho, the Senior Pastor of the Quest in Seattle, sparked this conversation a few weeks ago when his thoughts about this issue (and others) were posed in a public forum to Rob Bell – one of the most prominent voices in contemporary Christendom. Eugene illuminated the fact that (white) men like Rob Bell have an enormous platform and incredible influence that they could use to deal strongly and prophetically on the issue of women in ministry. While Rob Bell and the church he leads do have women in ministry, Eugene’s point (and mine) is that the public advocacy on this issue is nearly non-existent from leaders like Rob Bell while the public advocacy against women in ministry from leaders like Mark Driscoll is loud and clear.
What I do know is that waiting around for others to be strong and loud on this issue is a mistake. If Rob Bell becomes a strong public advocate for women in ministry, that’s cool, but it is up to those of us that are really passionate about it to really do all that we can to bring this issue back into the public square nationally/internationally.
Do you think it is a sin to ban women from ministry? What concerns you most about limiting women from equal access to ministerial leadership? Post some comments and let a brother know!
{ 44 comments }
I think it is very hurtful to the body of Christ to hold back the gifts that God has given for the use of the entire body. When any gifted member of the body of Christ is held back it hurts us all because we are one body. It also hurts Jesus because he is the Lord and husband of the body and when he opens the door for any one of his body to minister to the others, we dare not reject what he has given or close the door in the face of the one he has gifted.
I would not go to a church that is lead by female leadership. Sorry, I know that sounds shovinstic. Women should not be in a place were they are put in a position to discipline a man.
Wow, Shaun! Thanks for this great post! I get so excited when I see men talking like this! :) And you give a lot of scriptural precedent too.
I know I’m called to ministry… but being raised in a church where women cannot minister, and in circles where it was considered wrong, it is challenging to get the courage to step out in what I know I’m supposed to be doing!
Blessings!!!
Heidi
Heidi – continue to pursue the vision for your life that God has given you. You may have hurdles and obstacles that are unique because you are a woman in ministry, but all of us have our own challenges. If you let them, these challenges will create a stronger, focused person in you.
Take care,
Shaun
Shaun–Praise God for you! As an ordained minister who serves God under the leadership of a female pastor (who has, by the way, been a pastor in Lexington, KY for 27 YEARS–God bless her–and has not taken down), I have observed the prejudice, disdain, and disrespect of BLACK ministers more often than any others. What I have learned from my own experience as well as that of other female ministers with whom I have discussed this matter is that we were NOT looking for the calling! But just like Mary at the tomb of Jesus, we ran with haste to do God’s bidding, regardless of the scorn of man. I praise God for my brothers who are willing to ask the Holy Spirit for the REAL interpretation of 1 Cor. 14:34, which is so liberally used to speak against women in the ministry. God is willing to open up His mysteries to those who desire the truth!
Shaun, this is awesome that you have even brought this up. This is one of those watershed issues that will not get solved on this side of heaven, but that clearly does have a right side to it. Women in ministry can do so not just because of equality between men and woman socially, but because God calls according to gifts and destiny. You have done a great job with the facts on this and putting it out there. Go Pastor Shaun & Courageous Church!
I find it quite odd that your argument that “begins and ends” the conversation against the position you claim Mark Driscoll represents is the example of Pheobe.
Are you aware that Mark Driscoll whole heartedly supports women in ministry and specifically in the role of deacon? There are dozens of them in his church. I hope this was an accident of ignorance on your part, and not an intentional misrepresentation of him.
It is true however that many popular pastors today, including Mark Driscoll, believe the role of elder or pastor or overseer (those who hold highest authority in a local church) is biblically reserved for men. They draw primarily from 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 where Paul spells out the qualifications of an elder or overseer. This is where you should direct your argument, because Mark Driscoll and those who agree with him have no issues with women as deacons or prophets.
Hey Ted,
Thanks for your response. You said that I started and ended my argument with the example of Phoebe. What blog did you read?
My argument did not start or end with Phoebe and I included nine other biblical references and goo gobs of other thoughts about this issue.
Finally, while Mars Hill may have some female deacons, most churches with Southern Baptist roots do not – including most of those that agree with the Mars Hill stance to prevent women from serving as Elders & Pastors.
Wow! You are one honest @#$@#$@#$. LOL.
This is a topic that I’ve never really had to tackle in life. I know some women that set such a strong example in life that their character alone is like a ministry in itself.
I definetly do believe that all humans are created equal, but what does that mean exactly? Men don’t give birth to babies do they? The same way we’re equipped with different parts physically we may be equipped with different parts spiritually. Maybe that’s the man’s opportunity to bring life. I haven’t made up my mind really. I definetly don’t feel like somebody should be barred from answering what they feel is God’s calling, but sometimes we are wrong.
if I had to decide, I’d allow women to pastor. I feel in my heart that that’s the fair choice.
I need to learn more about the creation of man vs woman. Woman came from a man’s rib, what all does that encompass???
TOUGH TOPIC KING!!! you killin’ em!
I need to hear some women preachers to truly decide. Who do you suggest??
Pastor, you are right on target!.
One question that people fail to ask is “What is the Spirit doing in these last days?” Answer: pouring out the prophetic on both sons and daughters (Joel 2.28) and restoring the equality that God gave in creation. God did not put man in charge until after the fall. Before the fall the man and woman were equal and after Christ that equality is restored. For a more in-depth treatment try the book, Women in Leadership, on the following website:
http://www.pentecostalleadership.org/
God Bless,
Lee Roy Martin, DTh in Old Testament
Shaun wrote:
“I would like to draw your focused attention to one particular passage and person that I think BEGINS AND ENDS this conversation in many ways.”
I was simply quoting your own language. I did read and appreciate all the further biblical examples you presented. None of those examples, however, were directly related to the office of elder (although there is clearly room for debate here, depending on how one sees the office of judge, prophet, or apostle in relation to elder).
In interpreting scriptures, some people draw a special line around eldership that separates that one role from all other forms of ministry with regards to gender. For those people, this line would separate Driscoll from the SBC types you are lumping him with. To some the distinction is important… to you, it seems the distinction is not.
I hope that clarifies what I was saying. Blessings.
Hey Ted,
Thanks for reminding me of my words! What are your thoughts about the comments made above by Dr. Leroy Martin?
Women Preachers can sometimes be a threat to male preachers. It is an area that has always been male and there now dynamic female minsters are starting to emerge over the last 20 years. Women already out number men, more women are single and unmarried now more than ever so the message seems to be – what do we need a man for at all? We can do it all ourselves/ kind of like Womans LIB out of control. So I can understand why some men may want to “keep a woman in thier place” because it seems like we’re taking over everything! Condi Rice – a woman, is holding one of the highest offices in the land. Hillary Clinton, a woman, is for the first time – a true contender for the president of the USA. Now women preachers are poping up everywhere – just as strong and powerful and bold as the men. Yeah – I can see how this can effect a mans ego a bit. But times have changed – this is what happens when you have women as the head of household, raising kids by themselves, going to work and going to college – they are going to start being in charge of a lot more things – even the Church. It seems to me that there is not as many men going to church as there are women going to church – so naturally there are going to be more women preachers. Times really have changed, so it’s going to just take a while for people to get with the program.
Well there are sooooo many things i could say in response to this but i will only share a few. When the children of Israel where in a place of captivity our God raised up a Woman called Esther, who not only became Queen but also was the tool who was use to bring deliverance to the nation that we have been engrafted into from where we find Salvation today, Aswell as Mary the Mother of Jesus, again was the tool used to bring forth the Messiah, not only that but she had to nurture, discipline and train him in the way he should go, so when he was old he would not depart!!!!!!!!! So finally my Brethren let us not be tossed to and throw with every wind of doctrine,but rather stand fast in the liberty my SISTERS and brother wherewith Christ the ultimate appointer of office has made us free!!! AMEN (FOR IT IS SO!!)
Shaun, I think that this is a much more complicated issue than you make it seem. This is an issue that I’ve honestly struggled with because my head and my heart say that women should not be excluded from every area of ministry, but that does not seem to be what the bible says in several places. This is a gray area to me, and one in which I feel compelled to pray and study and make my decision, but that it’s just too far from cut and dry to insist that I’m the final word.
You would demonize those who disagree with you. You were smug to Ted who addressed your post without any vitriol. This can be an inflammatory subject, but we do not have to be inflammatory as men (and women) of God.
Hey Corbett,
Thanks for your comments.
I apologize for coming off as smug to Ted. I agree that Ted was just being informative and, upon reading my comment again, thought that my response was quick, but not smug. I was actually very enlightened by what he had to say.
You say, though, that this issue is complicated and not so cut and dry. I understand why you say this. I have thought about and researched this issue myself for many years. I did not arrive at my conclusion lightly.
However, consider this question? What would be worse?
1-God desires that women have freedom to pursue every level of ministry and people ban them from some levels.
or
2-God desires men to serve in certain areas of ministry and not women, but women are allowed to serve anyways.
I do not use this logic personally, but if applied, I think problem #1 has harsh, grave, consequences and problem #2 does not.
Thanks for holding me to a higher standard.
-Shaun
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WOW! I am a female Pastor and never had a desire to pastor at all until 7 years ago when Father God turned my heart toward the hurt, rejected, lost and abandoned young people and He said “lead them”. I simply obeyed and when I see the freedom in their eyes and hear them cry out to Jesus….finish school, help one another, pray with love and passion, enjoy life, live a life of purity and stand on the Word of God, etc. Somehow I know (without doubt) that God indeed anointed me Himself for this awesome task. He saw neither male nor female, but a willing heart full of humility.
Pastor Sherry
Fantastic. Not just because I agree with your stance, but because Scripture does.
I married Shiela because she had the heart of a missionary. Would have been a shame if she had been deceived by the naysayers to women in ministry.
Sorry dude. I think you’re wrong and your tone throughout this post sucks.
Also, you are misinformed. Driscoll and the church he pastors doesn’t ban women from ministry – I think this has already been addressed (There are women serving in the church as deacons and leaders of other ministries).
I think the Bible is pretty clear that women shouldn’t be in Pastoral Leadership roles – anything that would have authority over a man. That’s a very disagreeable thought with any present day thinker – but man is sinful and his thoughts are trash compared to what God has laid out in his perfect book. Your examples all show women as ‘Prophets’ but not leaders over a specific local church body, governing and leading them spiritually. I could go into details, but Deborah doesn’t work either – a judge over a nation (political realm) – give me an example in God’s Word where a women is PASTORING/LEADING a body on her own or where it says that it’s OK for a woman to pastor/lead. And then tell me how to deal with 1 Tim 2:12-14.
Anyway, this is a pretty big deal to a lot of people… plenty of books have been written about it, debates have been had, yadda-yadda. Bottom line – you aren’t exegeting God’s Word. You’re taking culture values and impressing them upon God’s church. Scary stuff, man. Scary stuff.
Hey Ryan!
Scary? How do you arrive at that conclusion man? Are you saying the entire United Methodist denomination is scary? How about Presbyterians? Most Pentecostals? Most African American denominations?
All of these groups and many more have supported women in all areas of ministry for decades. For you to resort to calling it scary is surprising.
Shaun
As a woman who feels the weighty call of God on her life on a DAILY basis, it saddens my heart that we as the body of Christ still major in such minors as this.
My very 1st pastor was a woman. The pastor before her died suddenly and she was the asst pastor at the time. If it was not for her ministry and her life of integrity, and her submission to her OWN husband, I would not be where I am today.
How very foolish for us to think as a CHURCH we will ever move forward when we are hung up on the likes of this topic.
Pastor Shaun, I want to thank you again for daring to talk about things that are often brushed under the rug. RACE AND GENDER in the pulpit.
As a black, spirit filled, called by God, woman, I am constantly looking at our leaders in the forefront and wondering why I dont see minorities at these churches. It breaks my heart. And to think, there’s a huge sector of people NOT being ministered to because of our pigheadedness.
Shaun,
I understand other groups support women in all areas of ministry. That doesn’t make it right. Or Biblically sound.
And personally, I think women in ministry is fine. Just not women in ALL areas of ministry. I know that sounds dated, dogmatic or just plain ‘old-school’, but I think the Bible is pretty clear on where women are and aren’t allowed to serve. And let’s get this straight, it’s not an equality thing. Man and woman are equal. But different. And that is good.
Either way, both sides (complementarians & egalitarians) have a ton of weight to through around to support their views. I don’t think supporting women in ALL areas of ministry is scary ( yes, wrong, but not scary). However, I think you’re approach via your blog post was (just a little, but not crazy scary).
On a separate note… you love Jesus, I love Jesus, I don’t agree with you, but hope that my love for you (via the interwebs) isn’t stunted by this interchange. I would probably never go to your church, but I think you’re doing some cool stuff there (saw via Vimeo) and hope Jesus is made to be a big deal in your community.
God bless,
ryan
P.S. I’m a white male.
Hmmmm…as a female Christian (and wife to a Southern Seminary grad), it’s no surprise to me that this debate continues to rage. I completely and totally disagree with Females as head pastors, but I believe that women are called to do great things by God. I was raised in the PCA, another denomination, by the way, that allows female deacons but not pastors. Have you visited Perimeter church? Nothing knuckle dragging and fundy about that place.
The thing is, that the text seems pretty clear to me, and you also see the text as clear, but you come at it with a different set of experiences and values. In the end we have to respect that our brothers and sisters are informed and feel very differently. We are called to love one another. Isn’t it interesting that it is often harder to love a fellow believer who we disagree with than it is to love an absolute heathen? I’m not saying that you have been unloving, but I have certainly seen this issue become vitriolic.
If you really want to know where the traditional view of this comes from, you should check out Piper & Grudem’s Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. I’m not trying to change your mind– just to give you some reading on the other side.
This is a very controversial topic where many emotions arise, obviously. I actually think Driscol is right on. I realize that he may come across strong though. He does believe in women deacons and agrees it is a sin to not let them serve. He just follows biblical standards when it some to leadership layed out in 1 Timothy and Titus. The role of the elder, overseer, pastor is clear that it should be a man. The role of a deacon in 1 Timothy is layed out to be a woman or the deacons wife. I believe in context it is for monen not the deacons wife, because of that standard was not layed out for the elder.
You should read Vintage Church and the role of leadership in the church. He is very fair and teaches the scripture.
I am glad Jesus is the center of everything and although many disagree on issues, we can still love one another. Thanks for your thoughts.
Just an observation… The fastest growing, most community impactful churches in my area (Orlando) happen to be churches that subscribe to views similar to Driscoll. The people who are joining and doing the most work unsurisingly happen to be more women than men. Don’t have any data on this, the church I attend (Northland), several PCA churches, and Southern Baptist churches are the one’s in my community that people are moving more toward.
I’m sure there are other reasons for this, but if it were such a huge, “sinful” deal, I would think 1) women would be outraged and not joining, & 2) God would not be blessing the work & fellowship of those churches. Neither is true.
Wondering what your thoughts are on these last few posts Shaun.
The Church (the body of Christ) is lead by Christ. He calls men to be the head of their families. So to say that a women can do the job Christ has called a man to do is wrong. The verses have been presented. But I felt that I just needed to give my two cents. Driscoll and others are doing it right.
I know that Mars Hill Church allows womento serve in EVERY area of ministry, except for that of Pastor/Elder. That said the verses you cite are not very strong evidence for women even as Deacons (though I believe this is okay), and they offer nothing in the way of justifying a woman pastor. The word (sometimes) translated Deaconness literally means "servant" and that is all. We should not disallow women from serving in the church, we should certainly allow good, Godly, submissive women serve and lead– but not as pastor/elder, the Bible is clear here. There are plenty of black pastors who believe the Bible and teach this– I really love Ken Hutcherson. The issue is not competence, no person that was cited here would ever argue that competence is the issue. The issue is simple obedience that exemplifies the cross of Jesus Christ. In first Timothy 2 Paul does not speak to this issue in terms of culture but God's original design for creation
Both male and female pastors are needed in every church. A woman needs to be the pastor of other women, and a man needs to be the pastor of other men. It does not matter to me if the senior pastor of the church is male or female. But my personal spiritual leader must be the same gender as me, and my wife's personal spiritual leader must be the same gender as her. I am the pastor to our sons until they are grown, and my wife is the pastor to our daughters until they are grown. This is not followed in most churches, and adultery and child molestation is rampant!
I am actually doing a paper on this very topic right now in my English class and it was interesting and enlightening to read your site. I actually disagree with you and I believe that women should not be in spiritual leadership over men. First of all I would have to say that what you wrote has a lot of fallacies in it. In my class we have talked about the right way to persuade or defend what you believe and you attacked people alot. You also made some rash remarks about churches in the South and their 'white men' saying that women can't lead. And I want to say that plenty of women and men believe women should not hold leadership positions and I am one of those women. As the body of believers I think we need to talk about this in a loving manner and realize that we are probably never going to come to a unified decision about this.
But what I wanted to say is that I have done my own research in the Scriptures and have found that Christ actually never called women into leadership roles. He called them out and made them important in society again but never made them leaders (depending on your definition of a deaconess sometimes they show spiritual leadership and other times they don't). Take the disciples for example who did he call? 12 men, he could have called six men or six women but he didn't, he called 12 men, and who did he call to lead his first church? Peter. Men and Women both have a ministry in the church but I think the Lord called us to different roles and there is nothing wrong or bad about that, both roles are important and vital for the church to grow. There are definitely places for women to lead like an all women's biblestudy and such but in a public setting I do not think that women should show spiritual leadership over men. Any way sorry this so long just wanted to say what I thought. Thanks
I started reading all the comments ans realized it doesn't matter what 'all say (even you Shaun, sorry). But what does God say?
I know He says the harvest is plenty but the laborers are few. If ANYONE feels the calling of God to do anything that is not contrary to HIS mission (you know, setting captives free, proclaiming the favorable year of our Lord, spreading the Gospel, healing the sick, ministering to the afflicted etc..), LET THEM DO IT in HIs name in the power of HIS Holy Spirit wherever they are in whatever capacity the serve or will serve!
Forget titles and whatnot. Let's just do this becasue most od us aren't. We waste time focusing on what such and such said. While yes, what a great impact it would make if EVERYBODY agreed and said the same thing but we don't. GOD however, never changes. He wants us to be obedient. My only issue is that most of the time people are busy arguing with each other about HOW to do God's will Susie Mae feels called to be whatever, let her be obedient. But I know God is not calling us to argue (or politely discuss) this matter.
continued….
…I have a love -hate relationship with our "what's your opinion?" society. I love how we can enlighten each other, get to know what is really going on in people's minds etc. But at the end of the day the real question is what is God's opinion? Not so much about whether or not we as a whole should do this or that but whether or not YOU as HIs child who He has supplied with His isn't saying or supporting, God is dealing with him. Whatever question women have about serving in any position, God will answer them. That's why He's given us the opportunity to boldly go before His throne and have a personal and intimate through Jesus Christ with the Omniscient, ALL-powerful Father. Let us listen to God and not worry about what man has to say in contradiction.
**stepping off soapbox**
***back on soapbox****
One more thing. The church — all the followers of Jesus Christ — is one body made up of many parts whose head is Christ, right? Of course. He's the only one who gets to decide what the other parts do (like our brain does to the rest of our body parts) The eye doesn't wait for the leg, arm and spleen to agree that it should lift to take a step. It just know the brain, said, MOVE, MAN! and it moved! The blood vessels and the muscles and nerves and bones all fell into their place and made it happen. If they don't and what for some other signal other than the one given from the brain (the head) the doctor would say that there is something wrong…SICK with that body. I just want to be a healthy body, y'all. I want to do my part because even with the Bible and the Holy Spirit we only see in part. Only God sees the whole picture.
***stepping off the soapbox — FOR REAL***
you forget that paul made it clear that he would never have a woman in leadership over a man. simply quoting verses that there have been women who have worked in an organized way for God does not take away the fact that it is clear that women have a different role in the church than men. it isnt because they are somehow of less worth then men, but because they have different roles in life. Either you believe that the word of God is ALL correct, or not. Scripture makes it clear that women are not to be senior leadership.
This is blog is a JOKE!
Mark Driscoll is NOT banning women from ministry. He is following the scripture. Mark driscoll believes women should teach and lead women and DO MINISTRY. Just because a women is not a Pastor doesnt mean she can't be in ministry.
This entire blog is based on EMOTIONS and not Scripture. I'm sorry you DONT LIKE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. But Scripture is clear and you are in SIN to not believe correct doctrine. I'm deeply shocked that christian men like you are so biblically off.
I'm a Baptist in the UK. As a baptist I understand the primary revelation of God as Jesus the Christ. When his Holy people read Holy scripture we do so as followers of Jesus. We interpret all of scripture though the person and work of Jesus. That is why we christians choose to love our enemies and choose not to commit genocide ( genocide being a perfectly biblical response) It is through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit with the help of Church (past and present) that we discern in our generation these matters.
So when we come to women in ministry we do so with this lens. Does Jesus represent both men and women on the cross? Then men and women can represent Jesus and his church at the Communion Table. And men and women can represent Christ to his people from the pulpit.
Whilst all scripture is God breathed not all of it is equally as useful! I believe Galatians 3 is more crucial than the passage in Timothy. (if you say I can't do this prioritising of scripture then tell me what denomination / church doesn't!)
Peace
This topic is not as cut and dry as the author made it seem. Those who see no Biblical support for women have spiritual authority over men are not pulling this out of their ….
And regardless of the examples provided, I see none where a woman was THE pastor (ultimate authority in the synagogue) or was able to have spiritual authority over men.
You don't appear to address any of Paul's verses saying women are not to teach. And unless I missed it, you don't provide an explanation to the Biblical qualifications for overseers and deacons being men.
Far more importantly – and I say this with full knowledge that I don't know you, but it appears as if you may villainize those who interpret scripture literally – and not culturally. Your tone seems to lack humility and to be a bit quarrelsome and unnecessarily confrontational as well. I hope I am wrong.
Whatever your theology – it should not be based on emotions … or because you have a wife and two daughters.
Praying for you and your ministry.
Aren't all those things your listing as the causes for "strong" women all caused by sin? Men shirking responsibility as in the Garden, Gen 1-3 and then a man not loving his wife as himself Eph 5 and leaving them single and with children (bastards). These women are reacting to manhood lived poorly and the Bible calls men to love women as Christ loves the Church Eph 5. The men have to lead the way but are too lazy, which is why the earth is cursed for man's sake so he will have to work the land to live because it is in rebellion against him as he is against God listening to the woman and not God (Gen 3). now man must work or he will die physically, though he is already dead spiritually because of sin which will ultimately lead to physical death no matter what. you need a Biblical world view not "The View"(the tv show). find Chris the servant leader and then see man the way he ought to be and find a godly husband.
Dear brethrens,
First receive our greetings from here Kenya under the Lord’s name.
I am happy to contact you through this Email.I wish that we share in Christ and Denounce Satan.Iam from kenya and I love to kwow more about God.I request that you assist me materially christian litare with our church members and fellow christians.Pray for all of us and support us where possible.Be blessed always .
My names are Francis Mangera Ombogo
P.o.Box 298,Ogembo Gucha,Kenya.
Tel;+254729043006
I teach at a youth group in South West Baltimore with 5-6th grade girls. This summer I've decided that we are going to focus on learning about women in the Bible to hopefully give them some role models and inspiration about what they can do. I will use your list of passage above to help me with this. Thank you.
On a side note I have been to churches with opposite sexism that do not allow men to serve in their children's ministry. Apparently they believe only men are pedophiles. We treasure the men that serve in our ministry and the strong role model they are to the children they teach. Our husbands are the spiritual leaders of our families and not allowing them to help teach the young children of the church is ridiculous to me.
Nice Clare.
My challenge to you is to not only help them see biblical example of women ministering, but help them see modern day examples of women ministering.
The issue isn't that ladies have no biblical precedent for being in ministry, it is that they often have no modern day precedent.
For more resources–including to more modern examples–check out http://www.cbeinternational.org. For others who are interested, this is the website for Christians for Biblical Equality. It includes scholarly work on the discussion.
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